Who has snorted the Fairy Dust?

[BTaylor]

Do NFAA targets react to sound or sense an object approaching them and move?

I'm all for 2 holes through a deer and that good stuff. But there are more factors to consider in hunting scenarios than knowing distance and sending an arrow to a bullseye, and dismissing the merits of flat trajectory and short time to target is shortsighted imo.

I agree with the poster who thinks compromise is necessary, cut the cake how you will.

It's not dismissing the merits of flat trajectory, it is putting a higher importance on sharpening the indian. If you right out a list and rank all the variables that influence the outcome of hunt, fps or arrow trajectory might not even be on the first page.

 

[waltholmes5]

Mark Series Arrows

G5 Outdoors American Company. Steel tough broadheads designed to hunt.

www.g5outdoors.com

Comes up if you search g5 Mark arrows

GPI looks really heavy.

 

[Plebe]

It's not dismissing the merits of flat trajectory, it is putting a higher importance on sharpening the indian. If you right out a list and rank all the variables that influence the outcome of hunt, fps or arrow trajectory might not even be on the first page.

Or top the chart, situationally.

 

[Horn]

GPI looks really heavy.

It sure does! That's why I thought this crew might be interested. Some of the 244 are somewhat reasonable. I wish they were a little lighter, they're in my home state so I'd like to be able to support them

 

[BTaylor]

Or top the chart, situationally.

I am certain you are correct for a lot of people. My perception is that the speed or trajectory of the projectile has little to no bearing on the outcome of a hunt for @WHW or Robert Carter or a hundred other straight killers. They are intimately familiar with the weapon of choice and the setup that gives them the highest odds of success. FPS can and may influence decisions on setup but will have little to do with outcome.

 

[Iron_llama]

GPI looks really heavy.

Be interested to see the components. The website says aluminum halfout and machined sleeve; I had to buy Ethics components to go with my 5mm Easton Axis to accomplish the same thing. Hopefully they start pushing more component options (steel, brass, glue-in weights, etc.) beyond this encouraging start.

 

[Weldabeast]

It sure does! That's why I thought this crew might be interested. Some of the 244 are somewhat reasonable. I wish they were a little lighter, they're in my home state so I'd like to be able to support them

We want the lightest gpi as we can get without underspine...u want all weight up front and as little tailing as possible

 

[Horn]

We want the lightest gpi as we can get without underspine...u want all weight up front and as little tailing as possible

I'm running 300 rip xv right now but I'm wanting something a little more durable, I may have to give up the lighted nock to get it. I think the current arrow is 480ish gr 19%foc with 235 of that up front.

Possibly looking at rip tko 250 spine at 8.9 gpi

 

[Plebe]

I am certain you are correct for a lot of people. My perception is that the speed or trajectory of the projectile has little to no bearing on the outcome of a hunt for @WHW or Robert Carter or a hundred other straight killers. They are intimately familiar with the weapon of choice and the setup that gives them the highest odds of success. FPS can and may influence decisions on setup but will have little to do with outcome.

I don't know who those guys are, so I can't comment on them. Nor do I know what the perquisites are to be considered a "straight killer." I'm guessing they are heavy arrow archers who are successful hunters. There's a serial killer I'm aware of, he's probably not a "straight killer" though.

I posted the recent video by DIY sportsman. I think that's a conversation starter on the topic of deer movement and time to target.

I'm not here to poo poo "heavy" arrows, they can and do work great. So do "lighter and faster" setups. Of course this is all so vague. Folks shooting 550ish TAW often put themselves in the heavy arrow camp. Heavy to some, light to others. One of the reasons it makes these discussions difficult or confusing.

I disagree that FPS has little to do with outcome. I'm not saying faster is "the solution" either. Just that it's a factor, one I believe goes beyond setup and has real world implications in how hunting scenarios play out sometimes.

 

[jtw0057]

I'm running 300 rip xv right now but I'm wanting something a little more durable, I may have to give up the lighted nock to get it. I think the current arrow is 480ish gr 19%foc with 235 of that up front.

Possibly looking at rip tko 250 spine at 8.9 gpi

I’ve got the rips with 200 up front. Shattered one by hitting what I assume was a metal rod In an elk target. I think the tkos are supposed to be stronger but man they’re a lot more expensive. Just put a rip through both scapulas on a little button buck so they hold up to that at least.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Horn]

I’ve got the rips with 200 up front. Shattered one by hitting what I assume was a metal rod In an elk target. I think the tkos are supposed to be stronger but man they’re a lot more expensive. Just put a rip through both scapulas on a little button buck so they hold up to that at least.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whew, I didn't realize how expensive the tko are!

 

[waltholmes5]

I don't know who those guys are, so I can't comment on them. Nor do I know what the perquisites are to be considered a "straight killer." I'm guessing they are heavy arrow archers who are successful hunters. There's a serial killer I'm aware of, he's probably not a "straight killer" though.

I posted the recent video by DIY sportsman. I think that's a conversation starter on the topic of deer movement and time to target.

I'm not here to poo poo "heavy" arrows, they can and do work great. So do "lighter and faster" setups. Of course this is all so vague. Folks shooting 550ish TAW often put themselves in the heavy arrow camp. Heavy to some, light to others. One of the reasons it makes these discussions difficult or confusing.

I disagree that FPS has little to do with outcome. I'm not saying faster is "the solution" either. Just that it's a factor, one I believe goes beyond setup and has real world implications in how hunting scenarios play out sometimes.

I think the honest answer on String Jumping is that short of being able to talk to a deer or read it's mind, we just don't know. There are SO many possible reasons and extrapolations not to mention for every deer that jumps like crazy there will be one that just takes it.

We know that our arrows are not faster than the speed of sound, nor is their flight silent. The deer could be reacting only to the sound of the bow, they could be reacting only to the sound of the arrow, the sound of the bow could put them on alert then they react to the arrow. Are lightweight faster arrows better because they get to the target sooner or are they worse because they make the bow louder and are louder in flight? Likewise with heavy arrows, is it better to be quieter or faster? What the heavy builds have in their favor is a better chance of penetration if something unexpected (like bone) gets in the way due to another step or a string jump. There's a comment under the video where a guy says his heavy crossbow bolts sound just like a bird in flight and he's never had one jump the string, who knows.

Same goes for the head up or down in relation to string jump. I think they're definitely onto something with the ability to use their head as a pendulum and whip their body around faster. There's also the question of which senses are getting the most attention, possibly sight while up and hearing while down, which means they could be more or less likely to react as quickly to the sound your bow or arrow make.

Likewise we don't know the deer's experience being hunted or pressured and same goes for what time of the season you are hunting. There's a lot that goes into this we'll just never know that can only be truly overcome with a rifle.

 

[BTaylor]

I disagree that FPS has little to do with outcome. I'm not saying faster is "the solution" either. Just that it's a factor, one I believe goes beyond setup and has real world implications in how hunting scenarios play out sometimes.

I am curious why you see things this way? What I hear from that response is that the weapon kills the deer, my perspective is the hunter kills the deer. The difference in trajectory between 200fps and 300fps for instance being low in importance in the overall equation because it was accounted for well in advance of a shot opportunity. Kinda like a rifle shooter knowing his drops as the range to target extends. Rifle shooters are concerned about accuracy in moa. I have never seen anyone say I can shoot 2.5" group at 300 yards with 11" of drop. The only thing that matters is did it hit where you sent it. Now if you take a guys 300 fps bow, give him one shooting 200fps and tell him to go hunt with it day one without acclimation, yeah that trajectory difference could be a real problem.

Oh and I too am not arguing faster/slower, high foc, heavy/light. There are so many things that influence deer movement when a shot breaks and there is so little correlation from one deer to the next. The only thing we as hunters can do is make sure the arrow goes where we sent it.

 

[Plebe]

I think the honest answer on String Jumping is that short of being able to talk to a deer or read it's mind, we just don't know. There are SO many possible reasons and extrapolations not to mention for every deer that jumps like crazy there will be one that just takes it.

We know that our arrows are not faster than the speed of sound, nor is their flight silent. The deer could be reacting only to the sound of the bow, they could be reacting only to the sound of the arrow, the sound of the bow could put them on alert then they react to the arrow. Are lightweight faster arrows better because they get to the target sooner or are they worse because they make the bow louder and are louder in flight? Likewise with heavy arrows, is it better to be quieter or faster? What the heavy builds have in their favor is a better chance of penetration if something unexpected (like bone) gets in the way due to another step or a string jump. There's a comment under the video where a guy says his heavy crossbow bolts sound just like a bird in flight and he's never had one jump the string, who knows.

Same goes for the head up or down in relation to string jump. I think they're definitely onto something with the ability to use their head as a pendulum and whip their body around faster. There's also the question of which senses are getting the most attention, possibly sight while up and hearing while down, which means they could be more or less likely to react as quickly to the sound your bow or arrow make.

Likewise we don't know the deer's experience being hunted or pressured and same goes for what time of the season you are hunting. There's a lot that goes into this we'll just never know that can only be truly overcome with a rifle.

I agree, much is unknown. Which makes a middle ground all that more appealing to me.

Though, I'll add a deer can move before impact without jumping the string or hearing an approaching arrow or seeing an approaching arrow, etc. I favor speed then.

However, what we can do is determine relative time to impact and work backwards and look at the results. I think speed offers some advantage. In broad terms, discussion is not very fruitful without the context of the comparative data.

 

[Plebe]

I am curious why you see things this way? What I hear from that response is that the weapon kills the deer, my perspective is the hunter kills the deer. The difference in trajectory between 200fps and 300fps for instance being low in importance in the overall equation because it was accounted for well in advance of a shot opportunity. Kinda like a rifle shooter knowing his drops as the range to target extends. Rifle shooters are concerned about accuracy in moa. I have never seen anyone say I can shoot 2.5" group at 300 yards with 11" of drop. The only thing that matters is did it hit where you sent it. Now if you take a guys 300 fps bow, give him one shooting 200fps and tell him to go hunt with it day one without acclimation, yeah that trajectory difference could be a real problem.

Oh and I too am not arguing faster/slower, high foc, heavy/light. There are so many things that influence deer movement when a shot breaks and there is so little correlation from one deer to the next. The only thing we as hunters can do is make sure the arrow goes where we sent it.

I've read accounts of a hunter or two who hit a branch. I've heard "the deer took a step right when I shot." etc.

Point being, it's not a straight line from pin to target nor an instantaneous moment from release to impact. The closer we get to that, the less error effects outcome.

If the arrow always goes where sent, there's little need for 650TAW. A field tip could do the trick, for a straight killer.

I'm with you on knowing one's abilities and how one's weapon performs.Those are critical aspect of hunting, and help minimize the outliers.

Just see faster speed the same as heavier weight, factors that matter more when the pin and hit aren't perfectly aligned.

 

[BTaylor]

I've read accounts of a hunter or two who hit a branch. I've heard "the deer took a step right when I shot." etc.

Point being, it's not a straight line from pin to target nor an instantaneous moment from release to impact. The closer we get to that, the less error effects outcome.

If the arrow always goes where sent, there's little need for 650TAW. A field tip could do the trick, for a straight killer.

I'm with you on knowing one's abilities and how one's weapon performs.Those are critical aspect of hunting, and help minimize the outliers.

Just see faster speed the same as heavier weight, factors that matter more when the pin and hit aren't perfectly aligned.

I hit a branch once that I didnt see before the shot. When it stopped swinging after the arrow hit it, I still couldnt see it. Light in the woods was perfect to hide it.

 

[Plebe]

I hit a branch once that I didnt see before the shot. When it stopped swinging after the arrow hit it, I still couldnt see it. Light in the woods was perfect to hide it.

Lots of excuses for that one, lol. I go with the trajectory cop out,

 

[BTaylor]

Lots of excuses for that one, lol. I go with the trajectory cop out,

Wasnt a trajectory issue, it was a hard left turn issue.

 

[kyler1945]

The topic came up here and I had just clipped an old video.

This buck is at about 27-30 yards. I marked the hole in shooting through with screen shot. Camera is a couple feet below me. The hole is probabky something like triangle with 2’ sides. Maybe 15-20” “circle” to shoot through. Right down side of tree on right side of hole. Deer was framed perfectly in it, and the branch I hit was roughly halfway between

260fps arrow. Bow zero at 27yards.

It may not look it in the grainy video and from the cameras perspective, but there’s nothing in the hole I highlighted between my vantage and the deer.

315fps arrow makes it home. Do I shoot 315fps now because of it? Nope. But there’s a lot of shots you can’t make with a heavy slow arrow that you can with a fast arrow.

What a wild hunt. Four rack bucks chasing a doe, made a set on them. He was the smallest and last to come through right at dark. 15 minute standoff with me and a bleat can, and him knowing he was going to get his but whipped if he came closer, but just couldn’t resist. Gave me the ole circle.

 

[Horn]

I am using this as a bit if a do-all arrow thread, someone please let me know if there's a better spot. Just posted this in the new gear thread, curious if those look like good options for arrow building, I haven't wadded into those waters yet. Kinda considering an Arizona ez fletch too

October Mountain Products Phoenix Fletching Jig: New for 2023 - Petersen's Bowhunting

If you're a bowhunter that prefers to build your flyers, the Phoenix Fletching Jig is as good as it gets.

www.bowhuntingmag.com