Why aren't we using alpine butterflies for tether/rappel?

[thedutchtouch]

I doubt this is an original idea, but had it today so wanted to discuss.

why are we not using alpine butterfly knots for our tethers/rapelling instead of a quick link/more complicated exploding hitches? Basically you get to height by whatever preferred method you have, tie an alpine butterfly in the middle of the rope, pass one end around the tree and through the loop, and tether/rappel from that end, and then when you're back on the ground, simply pull from the other end to get the rope out of the tree. No quick link or exploding hitch required. I don't see the knot getting caught up in limbs or crotches either because the knot is on the "pull down" side, and the tag end (that was connected to your saddle or rappel device) gets pulled up through it.

I feel like I just blew my own mind with how simple this could be, potential issues with this idea are:
- loose/dangling tag ends (could be stowed relatively easily)
-weighting the wrong tag end accidentally?
-passing limbs not easy, as you'd need to completely undo to pass limbs
- need to take everything off the rope when done rappelling (not really an issue as this is likely best rope management anyway)?
-To hunt 20 feet off the ground you need roughly 45 feet of rope (like most double rope systems I think?)

What other potential problems could there be with this idea/why isn't it a somewhat common idea already (or is it and there's already threads discussing the pros/cons)?

 

[CZMark]

When climbing one stick, I like the weight of a quick link or carabiner on the end of my rope to aid in throwing it around a larger tree or over a branch. When I'm tethered in at height, I normally tie an alpine butterfly into the end of my tether and clip that my carabiner.

 

[Horn]

I've been thinking about the same/similar idea. I think there's a method called a " biner block" that works the way your describing, more or less

Good thread! I'm very curious where this goes

 

[heretic]

While I love the alpine butterfly, specifically because I can tie it midline, I feel like tying one to use as a running eye kind of defeats the purpose of using a midline knot.

What advantages does this use case have over say the maverick? I almost get the sense the maverick is just as simple to tie as the alpine, with the exception being I can tie the maverick with my eyes closed. I can't say the same for the alpine butterfly.

 

[thedutchtouch]

While I love the alpine butterfly, specifically because I can tie it midline, I feel like tying one to use as a running eye kind of defeats the purpose of using a midline knot.

What advantages does this use case have over say the maverick? I almost get the sense the maverick is just as simple to tie as the alpine, with the exception being I can tie the maverick with my eyes closed. I can't say the same for the alpine butterfly.

I'm not familiar with this maverick knot. I was thinking alpine butterfly just because in my opinion it's simple to tie, and you can weight a single tag end and not have it tighten up/pull through, but it's also pretty dang easy to release or retie in a different spot. So I guess the question is really why aren't we using a mid-line bight (with a knot of your choice) instead of a quick link on the end of a line. The answer I keep coming back to is limb-passing on the ascent.

@Horn yeah, biner block makes sense too, but then we're re-introducing a bit of metal back into the system so at that point I'm not sure if there's advantages over the quick link. My head was more in the exploding hitch/jrb hitch is too complicated space so how else would one use and retrieve a rope without using anything else when I posted this.

 

[Swampwalker]

Sorry if this is too far afield. Any talk of carbon or other non metal materials for constructing quick links, delta links, and carabiners? Anything to get away from the dreaded metallic tink. We have to be getting close.

 

[Horn]

I'm not familiar with this maverick knot. I was thinking alpine butterfly just because in my opinion it's simple to tie, and you can weight a single tag end and not have it tighten up/pull through, but it's also pretty dang easy to release or retie in a different spot. So I guess the question is really why aren't we using a mid-line bight (with a knot of your choice) instead of a quick link on the end of a line. The answer I keep coming back to is limb-passing on the ascent.

@Horn yeah, biner block makes sense too, but then we're re-introducing a bit of metal back into the system so at that point I'm not sure if there's advantages over the quick link. My head was more in the exploding hitch/jrb hitch is too complicated space so how else would one use and retrieve a rope without using anything else when I posted this.

Sounds like we're pondering the same thing! I have to admit I've seen a piece of lexan that's sold for use in rock climbing as a fiddle stick / toggle for remote retrievable anchors. I'm sure the safety police will be on me for that comment lol but it seems like it might be a good option

 

[cedar paul]

When climbing srt many times I will pull end of climbing line up and over the branch . When the line comes over branch I will tie an Alpine butterfly and pull tag end through butterfly. I then climb that leg and when back on ground retrieve by pulling on opposite leg.

 

[Horn]

On weighting the wrong leg, and total rope needed, you don't have to put the loop in the middle. You could tie it bear the end and attach your usual pull down rope or small cord to the shorter leg. Yup, taking tips from rock climbing again

 

[bowhunthard88]

I'm in the metal camp for a few reasons: reduced friction and mid-line attachable, as my primary reasons. One the other hand, while I do love the Alpine Butterfly, why not a properly tied Figure Eight (if it's at the end)?

Edit: I'm personally using a Notch Quickie, but I have a few Kong Quick-Link setups too.

 

[cedar paul]

One can also use a Quickie to connect and this eliminates having to thread line through butterfly.

 

[Iron_llama]

I can't think of a reason it wouldn't work. A couple of downsides I see are carrying twice as much rope, and dealing with branches, assuming you climb on your main line, as in 1-sticking or 2TC. And tying knots in the field. While I haven't adopted JRB'S full system, his priority of having all his knots tied prior to getting to the tree so he can deploy in the dark or with heavy winter gloves or whatever, makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

This is the same as just using a terminal end knot (which I typically do). Either way you’re still passing a lot of rope through the eye. This is why people use carabiners, triglides and quickie links. That way they can clip around the rope without pulling all of it through.

 

[bowhunthard88]

Another method, which I do for recreational/work climbing, but not for hunting: pre-tie a small rated rigging ring to the end of your line (big fan of the 28mm SMC Radius Ring, pass a bight through the center of the ring, and then lock it off with a Quickie or rated carabiner through the bight, and snug it all down. Works great if you're on spurs and need a non-retrievable (return access) or emergency egress line.

 

[Iron_llama]

I can't think of a reason it wouldn't work. A couple of downsides I see are carrying twice as much rope, and dealing with branches, assuming you climb on your main line, as in 1-sticking or 2TC. And tying knots in the field. While I haven't adopted JRB'S full system, his priority of having all his knots tied prior to getting to the tree so he can deploy in the dark or with heavy winter gloves or whatever, makes a lot of sense to me.

Now that I think about it for a minute, if you put a 'biner on an alpine butterfly, you'll be able to move your rappel line around branches, same as you would with a "traditional" delta link or Notch Quickie or Pocono hitch. You tie off your pull-down end to your pack, and your rappel line to your bow. Tie in an additional, smaller-loop butterfly a few inches "downstream" of your loop; use it to advance your tether and at height hang your bow off of it. Use a bight of line next to your pack and a Marlinspike hitch to hang your pack off your tether. You'll never forget to attach your pulldown line and make the climb of shame to do so.

I'm seeing some upside here. I might have to find 60-70' of Oplux to play around with this idea.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Another method, which I do for recreational/work climbing, but not for hunting: pre-tie a small rated rigging ring to the end of your line (big fan of the 28mm SMC Radius Ring, pass a bight through the center of the ring, and then lock it off with a Quickie or rated carabiner through the bight, and snug it all down. Works great if you're on spurs and need a non-retrievable (return access) or emergency egress line.

I like that too. The small SMC rigging rings work great as do the austrialpin rings

 

[Horn]

The FiddleStick: An Advanced Anchor Tool for Canyoneering

It is a new approach to retrievable anchoring, opening up a wider range of possible anchors, and making it possible to descend more canyons while leaving nothing behind (aka “ghosting”).

www.canyoneeringusa.com

In case anyone else is crazy or interested. I think howNOT2 did a video with rappel and a highline using one

 

[bowhunthard88]

Now that I think about it for a minute, if you put a 'biner on an alpine butterfly, you'll be able to move your rappel line around branches, same as you would with a "traditional" delta link or Notch Quickie or Pocono hitch. You tie off your pull-down end to your pack, and your rappel line to your bow. Tie in an additional, smaller-loop butterfly a few inches "downstream" of your loop; use it to advance your tether and at height hang your bow off of it. Use a bight of line next to your pack and a Marlinspike hitch to hang your pack off your tether. You'll never forget to attach your pulldown line and make the climb of shame to do so.

I'm seeing some upside here. I might have to find 60-70' of Oplux to play around with this idea.

I'll argue with you some here haha! While I see the benefit of this, in some cases, I would say that I actually prefer a shoulder-height basal tie [dependent on the strength of your redirect] with that length of rope (I run 65' of Canyon C-IV). Most of my redirects are way stronger than the forces applied to them via basal tie, and if it's that weak where I'm wondering, I'm probably not using a canopy anchor on that point either... Just another viewpoint, through my lens, of course. No offense meant.

 

[bowhunthard88]

Now that I think about it for a minute, if you put a 'biner on an alpine butterfly, you'll be able to move your rappel line around branches, same as you would with a "traditional" delta link or Notch Quickie or Pocono hitch. You tie off your pull-down end to your pack, and your rappel line to your bow. Tie in an additional, smaller-loop butterfly a few inches "downstream" of your loop; use it to advance your tether and at height hang your bow off of it. Use a bight of line next to your pack and a Marlinspike hitch to hang your pack off your tether. You'll never forget to attach your pulldown line and make the climb of shame to do so.

I'm seeing some upside here. I might have to find 60-70' of Oplux to play around with this idea.

I guess there could be possible advantages, if one-stick or 2TC climbing, and then rappelling from height! My pull down/bow rope is tied immediately adjacent to the back of my quick-link/quickie, though (similar function with less bulk).

 

[gcr0003]

I carry 50 ft of Oplux or Rescue tech 8mm which isn’t very bulky at all and this is how I rappel. I typically hang on a stand alone tether during the hunt. If it’s tough bark tree I’ll throw a carabiner on the alpine connection to the rappel line side. The carabiner also negates having to feed the rope back through. The rope is easy haul the bow and bag up with, as well as easy to pull down from the tree even when it’s tough since you can get a better grip of it. I have greatly preferred this over 35ft rope and a pull down line. I carry two tethers, and 50ft with two WLR hitches on it. They stay on at all times. I can double stationary rope climb, SRT, and rappel. I can also 2tc on it but I prefer the single tethers. It’s a do it all system for me and doesn’t weigh much or take up much room.