Wind cones for Google Earth?????

[Allegheny Tom]

I think this is probably the solution I am looking for. I already use a few custom icons, but wasn’t aware I could import and embed photos.

There are probably better map sites for marking up images, but if you are partial to Google Earth (I am) and you want to add some wind features, here's a thought...
I think you already realize that you can add icons, but you can also add paths and lines. You could make a line (or lines) indicating different wind conditions in each stand location and colorize them accordingly. Make green Iines for favorable winds and red ones for bad winds. You can also change the thickness and transparency for lines witch could indicate the severity of the wind condition. A thick red line could mean..."no way this can be hunted under any circumstances of X wind direction". A thick or bold green line could mean an okay wind.
Hey, there are dozens of apps out there for hunting and mapping. I have been to only a few of them so there are strengths and weaknesses of each.

But I will go back to the gist of my earlier post... the gist was to understand wind behavior (as best as humanly possible) and store that in your brain.
I don't know what your area is like. Wind patterns may be easier to predict than where I hunt. In my areas, there are so many little aspects like the angle wind hits a ridge or the angle of it hits a tree line, that trying to place a symbol on a map is just about impossible.

 

[rabidd099]

Does anyone know of a way to input some kind of wind cone on google earth?
I feel it would really help narrow down entry setups and stand locations, but I don't know how to go about making them. I am not looking for ACTUAL wind data, just want to be able to build a wind cone for my predominant winds that I can drop into Google earth to help visualize my downwind drift. Does anyone know how this can be done?

Like this ?

 

[rabidd099]

Its called wind ninja and its primary reason for existance is wildland fire and prescribed burning, to get hyperlocal wind forecasts that take topography into consideration. There is a mobile app for it I haven't tried yet but the desktop app is not complicated but not super simple either since it is a pro tool. It is as legit as it gets though for wind predictions.

 

[IkemanTX]

Its called wind ninja and its primary reason for existance is wildland fire and prescribed burning, to get hyperlocal wind forecasts that take topography into consideration. There is a mobile app for it I haven't tried yet but the desktop app is not complicated but not super simple either since it is a pro tool. It is as legit as it gets though for wind predictions.

I have run wind ninja in the past to learn some, but I’m just looking for a permanent direction cone for a pre-determined wind direction so I can see which trees work for a certain wind at a glance. I have been playing around with imbedding the pictures as my solution.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Like this ?
View attachment 8196

I doubt that image has much accuracy when it comes to actual surface wind behavior, especially when trying to predict the subtle, micro air currents that can make or break an encounter with deer.
At ~10 mph as the map shows, that wind coming over that sharp ridge would be creating a low pressure zone on the upper part of the slope on the East side of the ridge. I will bet dollars to donuts that there would actually be a reversal of air flow on the mid to upper section of that leeward slope. High up on that slope, the wind would most likely have a tunnel effect happening due to the low pressure. Lower down that slope, wind would be being drawn back toward the west to suck into that wind tunnel...its a wind eddy. It took me a lot of years and countless milkweed floaters to understand wind eddies.
The speed of the prevailing wind and the steepness and sharpness of that ridge will dictate how severe eddying will be.


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[Kurt]

I totally understand that thermal interaction is HIGHLY important, and can often times override predominant wind.
I just simply wanted to find a way to embed a visual of probable scent dispersion on prevailing winds.

Every little bit of simplicity I can add to the maps/aerials of the over 100,000 acres of public land I have to decide between helps. It would be nice to have trees that I know work only on certain winds designated with a permanent scent cone showing that pre-determined prevailing wind right there in the map, so I don’t have to re-read notes on 80-90 trees. That way, I could look, at a glance, at my GE aerials and narrow down the locations to whichever wind is expected.

Add your notes data to excel. Use the filters to choose the stand locations based on prevailing wind direction. copy maps with arrows or cones to each selection and that should help you organize your selection process

 

[rabidd099]

I doubt that image has much accuracy when it comes to actual surface wind behavior, especially when trying to predict the subtle, micro air currents that can make or break an encounter with deer.
At ~10 mph as the map shows, that wind coming over that sharp ridge would be creating a low pressure zone on the upper part of the slope on the East side of the ridge. I will bet dollars to donuts that there would actually be a reversal of air flow on the mid to upper section of that leeward slope. High up on that slope, the wind would most likely have a tunnel effect happening due to the low pressure. Lower down that slope, wind would be being drawn back toward the west to suck into that wind tunnel...its a wind eddy. It took me a lot of years and countless milkweed floaters to understand wind eddies.
The speed of the prevailing wind and the steepness and sharpness of that ridge will dictate how severe eddying will be.


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That's true... this shows 20ft winds (20ft above the avg height of the vegetation, so in timber is 20ft above the trees, in open marsh or field it basically reflects eye level winds), but this the best there is for now that is scientifically proven, I wouldn't trust any other app to be more accurate, some are more user friendly and quick for sure.

There are going to be wind eddies for sure, but if you learn to read it you can determine were they are likely to be for instance if you look at the map at the ridge with orange (~9-12mph winds) and then there is a narrow strip of one yellow (~6-8mph) row before green (~3-5mph) which has a wider line. So in that area of rapid decelerating wind is that low pressure your talking about in the upper 1/3 of the ridge (bottom of the upper 1/3 to be more precise) where you will find the most pronounced eddies in the timber stand, like your experience has told you to expect in that area. What this program does tell you is about how high or low that pressure line is which without it you wouldn't likely know before hand without having sat in that draw several times in similar weather conditions.

Also in defense of the program it models 20ft winds, and I ran the quick analysis run for a quick screen shot. If you run a detailed run it can take a while to process (15mins - an hour) but can include diurnal winds as an option as well as changed the size of each parcel forcasted (for instance the model above I made to run quick so it estimated winds in every 300ft blocks.

To the best of my knowledge it is the premier wind modeler available to the public. I have taken advanced fire weather courses taught by meteorologists from NOAA who use this program. If you know of a wind modeler with better detail I would like to know so I can play with it.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

That's true... this shows 20ft winds (20ft above the avg height of the vegetation, so in timber is 20ft above the trees, in open marsh or field it basically reflects eye level winds), but this the best there is for now that is scientifically proven, I wouldn't trust any other app to be more accurate, some are more user friendly and quick for sure.

There are going to be wind eddies for sure, but if you learn to read it you can determine were they are likely to be for instance if you look at the map at the ridge with orange (~9-12mph winds) and then there is a narrow strip of one yellow (~6-8mph) row before green (~3-5mph) which has a wider line. So in that area of rapid decelerating wind is that low pressure your talking about in the upper 1/3 of the ridge (bottom of the upper 1/3 to be more precise) where you will find the most pronounced eddies in the timber stand, like your experience has told you to expect in that area. What this program does tell you is about how high or low that pressure line is which without it you wouldn't likely know before hand without having sat in that draw several times in similar weather conditions.

Also in defense of the program it models 20ft winds, and I ran the quick analysis run for a quick screen shot. If you run a detailed run it can take a while to process (15mins - an hour) but can include diurnal winds as an option as well as changed the size of each parcel forcasted (for instance the model above I made to run quick so it estimated winds in every 150ft blocks.

To the best of my knowledge it is the premier wind modeler available to the public. I have taken advanced fire weather courses taught by meteorologists from NOAA who use this program. If you know of a wind modeler with better detail I would like to know so I can play with it.

I didn't mean to imply that wind app wasn't a useful tool or that there are better apps. I do like windy.com for it's animated screen and also the ability to scroll ahead on the date (or hour), but my main point was that although apps are helpful, they can't show the intricate surface patterns that are so important to whether we get busted or not. Analyze app maps and then apply the data to our specific surface location. No app will show updrafts, downdrafts, and reversal eddies. Surface patterns are much more dynamic than prevailing patterns, but many surface behaviors do what they do on a given day based on the combination of the prevailing wind flowing over complex terrain and structure, and thermal activity.
The app in post #22 shows all wind traveling roughly West to East. That's the prevailing wind, it's not necessarily surface wind. Knowing the prevailing wind direction and speed only helps us predict surface winds. In a lot of cases, surface wind is incredibly fickle but using wind apps like the one in #22 does help us predict what will actually happen on the surface based on leeward or windward slopes and also sun exposure as the day progresses.

It's pretty amazing how individual structure features can dictate surface behaviors.
One stand I used to hunt was 40 yards off of a wide open pasture and the stand was in thick cover. The tree line was E-W. If a fairly strong wind blew quarterly from the cover to the field, the wind would corkscrew down to the ground, and along the low pressure seam of the tree line and suck right along the tree line at ground level. When the wind reached to far end of the pasture it then shot up due to the high pressure in the other patch of woods. But if the wind quartered from the pasture toward the cover, the woods became a high pressure area and an up draft formed. But with a lighter wind with ether scenario, those behaviors were much less prevalent. But any wind app would have shown only the prevailing wind.

Another example...
On one particular hunt, I had one lone pine near a stand absorb heat from the intense morning sun and an updraft was created right on the SE side of that tree. The tree was to the West of me and the light, stable, prevailing wind that morning was from the North. It was a partly cloudy day...half the time the sun shown brightly and heated the SE side of that dark pine, and the other half of the time the fluffy cumulous clouds rolled it and blocked the sun and that dark tree no longer absorbed heat. When it was sunny, the wind N to S prevailing wind switched 90 degrees...it sucked Westward over to that pine and shot straight up until it reached treetops and then continued Southbound just like the prevailing wind. But when the clouds covered the sun, and there was no absorptive heating of the pine, the surface wind switched back to the N to S flow. All morning I observed the wind switch over and over and I wondered why the 90 degree switch because I was not in a low pressure zone. The wind should not have been switching because I was not in an eddy. But my milkweed showed me exactly what was happening. I have to say, figuring that out that day was not only very enjoyable, it also was yet another learning moment about surface wind behavior.
Wind apps are great. I use them often. But not with the thoughts that surface wind will be doing what prevailing winds are doing. The apps help me predict what surface winds will actually be doing.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Here is an example of how we need to apply prevailing wind to predict what surface wind should be doing.
Look at that point where the arrow is pointing and imagine a fairly calm and sunny day. Early morning, sun low in the East and warms all the East exposure slopes and creates warming and upward thermals. At that very same instant, there are adjacent slopes that are still not in sun exposure and they are still under the influence of a cooling thermals. There are many seams where these thermals meet and they interact. And those thermals and their individual seams travel and change in intensity as the sun arc changes during the course of the day. Add in any weather systems and the prevailing winds that they produce. Then lay that over a topo map, and then imagine what the wind will do under different wind directions and speeds.
In some areas, surface wind prediction is torture, and it only takes a slightly different change of ingredients to change it all.
But its all predictable to a certain extent. Some predictions are easier than others...cloudy day, light prevailing wind, in a stand that's in a high pressure area with fewer structure complexities...that's easy.
But complex thermal seams, complex slope variations, and low pressure leeward slopes create low predictability...and those things change during an all day hunt. But that in of itself, is still predictable.
Any predictions we may make of surface behavior is all dictated by knowing prevailing wind direction and speed over structure.

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[rabidd099]

I didn't mean to imply that wind app wasn't a useful tool or that there are better apps. I do like windy.com for it's animated screen and also the ability to scroll ahead on the date (or hour), but my main point was that although apps are helpful, they can't show the intricate surface patterns that are so important to whether we get busted or not. Analyze app maps and then apply the data to our specific surface location. No app will show updrafts, downdrafts, and reversal eddies. Surface patterns are much more dynamic than prevailing patterns, but many surface behaviors do what they do on a given day based on the combination of the prevailing wind flowing over complex terrain and structure, and thermal activity.
The app in post #22 shows all wind traveling roughly West to East. That's the prevailing wind, it's not necessarily surface wind. Knowing the prevailing wind direction and speed only helps us predict surface winds. In a lot of cases, surface wind is incredibly fickle but using wind apps like the one in #22 does help us predict what will actually happen on the surface based on leeward or windward slopes and also sun exposure as the day progresses.

It's pretty amazing how individual structure features can dictate surface behaviors.
One stand I used to hunt was 40 yards off of a wide open pasture and the stand was in thick cover. The tree line was E-W. If a fairly strong wind blew quarterly from the cover to the field, the wind would corkscrew down to the ground, and along the low pressure seam of the tree line and suck right along the tree line at ground level. When the wind reached to far end of the pasture it then shot up due to the high pressure in the other patch of woods. But if the wind quartered from the pasture toward the cover, the woods became a high pressure area and an up draft formed. But with a lighter wind with ether scenario, those behaviors were much less prevalent. But any wind app would have shown only the prevailing wind.

Another example...
On one particular hunt, I had one lone pine near a stand absorb heat from the intense morning sun and an updraft was created right on the SE side of that tree. The tree was to the West of me and the light, stable, prevailing wind that morning was from the North. It was a partly cloudy day...half the time the sun shown brightly and heated the SE side of that dark pine, and the other half of the time the fluffy cumulous clouds rolled it and blocked the sun and that dark tree no longer absorbed heat. When it was sunny, the wind N to S prevailing wind switched 90 degrees...it sucked Westward over to that pine and shot straight up until it reached treetops and then continued Southbound just like the prevailing wind. But when the clouds covered the sun, and there was no absorptive heating of the pine, the surface wind switched back to the N to S flow. All morning I observed the wind switch over and over and I wondered why the 90 degree switch because I was not in a low pressure zone. The wind should not have been switching because I was not in an eddy. But my milkweed showed me exactly what was happening. I have to say, figuring that out that day was not only very enjoyable, it also was yet another learning moment about surface wind behavior.
Wind apps are great. I use them often. But not with the thoughts that surface wind will be doing what prevailing winds are doing. The apps help me predict what surface winds will actually be doing.

We are in agreement, I wasn't trying to counter what you said just add to it. It is not going to show exactly what is going on nothing can do that yet...unless you leave mobile weather stations in the woods. I was just trying to say that compared to windy (which I still use too) which takes a broad scale forecast from NOAA CONUS or NOMADS server and animates it, its going to be much more accurate since it takes those broad scale forecasts, elevation data from google and a few other optional effects (optional for processing reasons mostly) and then creates that hyper-local wind forecast. I still use windy, huntstand and such since they are vastly quicker but I also take them with a grain of salt, wind ninja too just a smaller grain of salt. All of them need ground proofing and experience to use them to their fullest, but when it comes to the liability of lighting the woods on fire (legally) I what the best info I can get, and it just happens that I may run it before a big hunt if I get the chance.

Here is an example of a more detailed forecast for my area this evening, it shows some large horizontal eddies on the leeside of the mountain.

 

[rabidd099]

Here is an example of how we need to apply prevailing wind to predict what surface wind should be doing.
Look at that point where the arrow is pointing and imagine a fairly calm and sunny day. Early morning, sun low in the East and warms all the East exposure slopes and creates warming and upward thermals. At that very same instant, there are adjacent slopes that are still not in sun exposure and they are still under the influence of a cooling thermals. There are many seams where these thermals meet and they interact. And those thermals and their individual seams travel and change in intensity as the sun arc changes during the course of the day. Add in any weather systems and the prevailing winds that they produce. Then lay that over a topo map, and then imagine what the wind will do under different wind directions and speeds.
In some areas, surface wind prediction is torture, and it only takes a slightly different change of ingredients to change it all.
But its all predictable to a certain extent. Some predictions are easier than others...cloudy day, light prevailing wind, in a stand that's in a high pressure area with fewer structure complexities...that's easy.
But complex thermal seams, complex slope variations, and low pressure leeward slopes create low predictability...and those things change during an all day hunt. But that in of itself, is still predictable.
Any predictions we may make of surface behavior is all dictated by knowing prevailing wind direction and speed over structure.

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Windninja makes adjustments for the topo, conservation of mass, momentum, atmosphere stability (in beta) and the diurnal thermals depending on aspect of slope. Its really a facinating program...but it takes a long time to run a forecast depicting a snapshot of time. if you wanna see other times you have to run it again.

If you really wanna nerd out on wind and windninja watch this webinar

 

[rabidd099]

I guess what im trying to say is most apps are only mapping 2-4 kilometer wind parcels (regardless for the number of wind arrows moving across the screen vs. this one which can be a 200ft wind parcel forecast.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

We are in agreement, I wasn't trying to counter what you said just add to it. It is not going to show exactly what is going on nothing can do that yet...unless you leave mobile weather stations in the woods. I was just trying to say that compared to windy (which I still use too) which takes a broad scale forecast from NOAA CONUS or NOMADS server and animates it, its going to be much more accurate since it takes those broad scale forecasts, elevation data from google and a few other optional effects (optional for processing reasons mostly) and then creates that hyper-local wind forecast. I still use windy, huntstand and such since they are vastly quicker but I also take them with a grain of salt, wind ninja too just a smaller grain of salt. All of them need ground proofing and experience to use them to their fullest, but when it comes to the liability of lighting the woods on fire (legally) I what the best info I can get, and it just happens that I may run it before a big hunt if I get the chance.

Here is an example of a more detailed forecast for my area this evening, it shows some large horizontal eddies on the leeside of the mountain.

View attachment 8503

I didn't take your post as a counter point. I'll bet you and I are in agreement on most wind behaviors.
I just wanted to make the point that as good as apps are that show prevailing wind, its the surface winds are what can kill us.
Surface winds are predictable, but often difficult to predict.
But there's no way we can predict it if we don't know what the prevailing wind is doing. Its up to us to plug-in all the criteria and make the right stand choices. An app that shows a wind cone can't do it.

Some of us don't have large acreage, and wind behavior on small properties doesn't always allow many days of prudent hunting. Understanding surface behavior is based on knowing the current prevailing wind which help us make the right decisions...not only in our choice of stands, but also is access choice, too.


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[Allegheny Tom]

Windninja makes adjustments for the topo, conservation of mass, momentum, atmosphere stability (in beta) and the diurnal thermals depending on aspect of slope. Its really a facinating program...but it takes a long time to run a forecast depicting a snapshot of time. if you wanna see other times you have to run it again.

If you really wanna nerd out on wind and windninja watch this webinar

Yeah, as I type, there is a geek somewhere that changes how we hunt.
I heard the other day that they are developing a device that predicts an animals behavior before they do it. They say they can read a rats mind as it goes thru a maze...it knows what the rat is gonna do before it does it. Supposedly, could initially have military uses...know what the enemy is gonna do before he decides to do it.
Not sure if I'm ready for the modern advances.

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[Basiiczxx]

Wind finder

I also use wind finder for my needs

 

[IkemanTX]

Yeah, as I type, there is a geek somewhere that changes how we hunt.
I heard the other day that they are developing a device that predicts an animals behavior before they do it. They say they can read a rats mind as it goes thru a maze...it knows what the rat is gonna do before it does it. Supposedly, could initially have military uses...know what the enemy is gonna do before he decides to do it.
Not sure if I'm ready for the modern advances.

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That is a neural interface system. It doesn’t let you know anything before the animal does it, but it can read the neuron signal causing the movement in real time.
Elon Mush has a company called Neuralink that is working to improve the detail and bandwidth of info processed. They are aiming for a 1,000 fold increase in capacity. Really neat stuff.

 

[mattsteg]

One thing's for sure - there's a very high chance that just about any cool toy you stumble upon...has been used by someone in this forum.

Played around with the ninja a bit last night - it's really neat what it can do if fed detailed enough data. Can't say I "trust" the output fully, but our local govt. has a 1m resolution DSM dataset (i.e. includes canopy, buildings, etc) and for a small enough area it'll spit out things like flow around a tree. No contest for actual boots on the ground, but an interesting toy.