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Dog tests on scent control

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John Eberhart

John Eberhart

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Scent control and laughable dog tests

There have been several tests pertaining to scent control where dogs were used to track down the individual wearing activated carbon lined garments and there’s one where the person is totally clad in an air-tight rubber suit with some form of a space suit helmet on with air pumped into it.

These tests are totally meaningless as every one of the tests had the dogs following the trail of the person from a beginning point to a final destination point. Most any animal with a descent nose could do that and it has absolutely nothing to do with a scent control regimen and here’s why.

If it were possible to have a 200 pound person made of 100% odorless materials (similar to the air tight space suit) and have him walk from point A to point B over land and then hide, a dog that is trained to follow scent or any animal with an acute nose could easily find the 100% odorless person. Some that don't think about things in any depth (which is most people), might ask how that is possible?

Stop and really think about it for a few minutes before reading on and see if you can figure out the answer to this very simple question. How could an odorless weight move over an area of ground and then be tracked down?

Think

Think

Think

OK, now that you’ve had a few moments, the answer is very simple and basic. Every hunter, golfer, fisherman, hiker or anyone that does things early in the morning remembers those mornings when they walked through dew covered areas and at some point looked at their back trail and could easily see every exact footstep they took because to the human eye, the dew was visually disrupted.

While we can easily see the disrupted ground, an animal with a keen sense of smell can easily follow the same trail by the odor of the disrupted ground and vegitation. Whenever ground, grasses and or weeds are disrupted (grasses are broken and crushed by the weight, earth under each step is altered from the weight and weeds are broken from the weight) a trained dog can and most any animal can easily follow that path even if there is no other odors whatsoever.

To a trained dogs nose there is a huge amount of odor to follow that is different from the rest of the surrounding undisturbed ground, and that odor is caused by the weight of the 100% odorless person altering the ground odor with every step.

Let's say the odorless person went down a river through the water for a ways and then got out of the river and went elsewhere like you see escaped convicts do in the movies to lose a tracking dog. Obviously if a dog were searching the river’s edge, he would immediately know when he passed over the odorless person’s path because the altered ground odor the person walked on would have a different odor than the surrounding unaltered ground.

I would bet that right after daylight my 3 year old grandson could find a hunter that had walked to his tree through a grass, weed, of green field covered in dew. To us as humans that is an easy visual to follow. Just as we can visually follow the dew disruption to a hunters stand with ease, a dog could easily follow the ground disruptions with the 100% total absence of human odor.

On several occasions every season I’ll have mature whitetails cut and follow my entry ground disruptions for a short distance as well, but because there’s an absence of human odor, they quickly lose interest and go on about their natural routines and movements. In the heavily pressured areas I hunt, if there were any traces of human odor on my entry routes, those mature deer would have spooked immediately if not sooner.

My son Chris owned two trained German Bavarian Bloodhounds for recovering deer and they could follow any scent alteration to the surrounding ground.

It blows my mind that hunters don't think of these very simple facts, but rather want to spew some BS about a dog finding a person that had just walked through and totally disrupted the ground and vegetation to where he hid. It's actually very amusing to me.

I’ve spoken to several dog trainers and from the onset of our conversation they all said that a trained dog is different in that they are trained to sniff out the perpetrator and that there is no way of fooling them. However when I laid down my guidelines for a specific scent test, they backed off on guaranteeing their dogs could locate the person.

The test I proposed to a couple dog trainers is more in line with what whitetail deer hunters have to deal with which is ambush hunting from a specific site. It has nothing to do with following a set trail.

I proposed the following as a dog test to locate me wearing ScentLok:

-I would wear my normal scent control regimen garments which consists of a PROPERLY cared for exterior ScentLok suit (jacket, pants, gloves and head cover with drop down facemask), and a pair of clean rubber boots that are several years old so they have no rubber odor.

-I would be air lifted by a helicopter and from a height of at least 300 feet off the ground (so the down current of the blades won’t disrupt the ground odor) I would be lowered by a rope into a tree (20 feet up the tree) within an area with other similar trees (odor wise) nearby where I would hook up in my clean harness. I would remain there once the chopper left. By doing this I would not be disrupting anything on the ground in any manner.

-Shortly thereafter the dog trainer and dog would arrive and the dog would be released while tethered and be allowed to walk 20 to 50 yards perpendicular and at some point pass through my downwind current (whatever distance the trainer felt would be best for my detection). In other words the dog would walk in a similar manner to a deer that at some point while moving around the tree would pass directly downwind of me. The dog would also walk in a similar stride as a deer would.

-So the dog would only be exactly directly downwind of me for a few moments as he was passing by on the downwind side, just as a deer would. Or the dog could be allowed to come in from the downwind side just as a deer would on a runway that led past the tree.

-This test would totally remove any possibility of a dog following a ground disrupted trail.

-Every trainer thought that under those conditions their dogs wouldn’t be able to detect me and I’m positive they wouldn’t because if a mature deer can’t under similar conditions, neither could a dog and I have deer downwind of me on almost every hunt. Because I pay zero attention to wind direction, I have deer downwind of me on a consistent basis.

Scent control works and I have on many occasions had mature deer walk down my entry routes smelling vegetation along the way, but not spooking and eventually moving on. Did I think they were following some residual human odor I might have left, absolutely not? In the heavily pressured areas I hunt, had I left any trace of human odor, they never would have curiously followed a path with human odor.

A proper scent control regiment requires a little extra work, especially in the beginning, and hunters not willing to put in the extra effort or don't know how to do it, it's much easier to slam the proven technology with false rhetoric that should be meaningless to anyone that researches things for themselves.

Just consider how many hunters you know that say stands are better than a saddle? I certainly hope you boohoo them because that's not even a contest either!! They are simply too lazy or egotistical to give in.
 
Scentlok acknowledges their products cant fool dogs, no need to pick apart tests.

Q: “I’ve heard trained dogs can find people in ScentLok suits. If that is true, how can it work on whitetails?”
A: ScentLok has never designed a suit to overcome tracking dogs. We produce products that reduce enough human odor to overcome the deer’s sense of danger associated with human odor. It’s not the sense of smell that is the important thing to consider; it’s that animals react to human odor molecules much differently. A trained dog picks up on the slightest odor-molecule of a specific subject and seeks higher and higher concentrations of that specific odor trail until it reaches the subject. Due to its training, the dog has been conditioned to follow an odor trail to its source which ultimately results in a reward.
A wild deer, through its innate instincts and acquired survival tactics, will tolerate a certain threshold level of human odor before it reacts. For example, a deer may smell a footprint several days old and doesn’t run in panic, this small amount of human odor usually results in a curious response. A little more human odor and the deer may be tense, but not to the point of panic. And if a high enough concentration of odor is detected, the deer will eventually flee from the perceived danger.
Through the use of activated carbon technology, ScentLok clothing lowers the human odor signature to well below the level a typical big-game animal associates with danger. When wearing ScentLok properly, deer may sense a small amount of human odor but normally don’t detect enough to react visibly."
 
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kenn1320 said:
Scentlok acknowledges their products cant fool dogs, no need to pick apart tests.
Click to expand...

Excuse me but they only acknowledge it on a test where the human walks and the dog follows the trail. As mentioned any animal with a good nose could follow that. My test wasn't about following a disrupted ground trail.

When a dog knows he is searching for something due to his training and the trainer puts him on a trail with disrupted ground, of course he can track him.
 
Quite frankly I think it’s silly to bring up dogs. We aren’t hunting dogs. We are not trying to fool a blood hound. Yet every time someone brings up the dog test.
Then someone will say will say something about still smelling farts. Silly and childish.
You either believe in scent control or you don’t.
It’s as debatable as religion and politics


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
John's experiment wasn't about tracking dogs tracking. John's experiment is ment to take tracking out of the equation. Controlling all variables EXCEPT airborne human scent particles. He then tried to outline a manner in which the dog would move similar to a deer in our hunting area(I believe a much harder variable to simulate absolutely) . But I get the jist, and I think a very sound proposal on a scientific level. John believes his conclusion, based on his years of hunting using scent loc, and using his regime to care for it would leave him undetected. Period. I did read the Rutger's findings. A very reputable source of scientific information. The question now arises, is anyone going to use scent loc for themselves? John uses scent loc, he's happy with it. This along with years of experience have made John a big buck killer in HIS deer woods. He's trying to share that with us. That's great John, and thank you for your last few posts. Some will try it. Frankly I'm intrigued. Some won't. That should be it. I believe in asking questions and being skeptical. We all could talk this thing to death, and I think we have. now we either get out there and try it, or we don't. John, like every other hunter on this site is bringing something that they believe will help their fellow hunter. G2 brought the 5 aider climbing technique just recently. I've been working on it. I'm a knaider/swaider guy . I not sure the 5 step is for me, THAT'S IT. G2 loves it. He brought it forward because he thought someone would benefit from using it, like he's benefitted. Why are we ripping John apart? Why are some trying to debunk his method? It almost sounds personal, and I don't know why it should be. But I have a long list of reasons it shouldn't be. I won't list them because we all know what they are. Agree to disagree, and move on. Adopt scent loc in or don't, and move on. Thank you John for taking the time to post. Now I will decide if it's for me.
 
Kurt said:
John's experiment wasn't about tracking dogs tracking. John's experiment is ment to take tracking out of the equation. Controlling all variables EXCEPT airborne human scent particles. He then tried to outline a manner in which the dog would move similar to a deer in our hunting area(I believe a much harder variable to simulate absolutely) . But I get the jist, and I think a very sound proposal on a scientific level. John believes his conclusion, based on his years of hunting using scent loc, and using his regime to care for it would leave him undetected. Period. I did read the Rutger's findings. A very reputable source of scientific information. The question now arises, is anyone going to use scent loc for themselves? John uses scent loc, he's happy with it. This along with years of experience have made John a big buck killer in HIS deer woods. He's trying to share that with us. That's great John, and thank you for your last few posts. Some will try it. Frankly I'm intrigued. Some won't. That should be it. I believe in asking questions and being skeptical. We all could talk this thing to death, and I think we have. now we either get out there and try it, or we don't. John, like every other hunter on this site is bringing something that they believe will help their fellow hunter. G2 brought the 5 aider climbing technique just recently. I've been working on it. I'm a knaider/swaider guy . I not sure the 5 step is for me, THAT'S IT. G2 loves it. He brought it forward because he thought someone would benefit from using it, like he's benefitted. Why are we ripping John apart? Why are some trying to debunk his method? It almost sounds personal, and I don't know why it should be. But I have a long list of reasons it shouldn't be. I won't list them because we all know what they are. Agree to disagree, and move on. Adopt scent loc in or don't, and move on. Thank you John for taking the time to post. Now I will decide if it's for me.
Click to expand...
I personally am not trying to rip anybody apart. But I have questions. I'm trying to use scent Lok to my advantage. I've had issues with it and I have questions about it. I don't know about dog test. As @I'mthere stated I'm not hunting dogs. I have to walk across the ground to get to where I go. I personally think that John is a very skilled and accomplished hunter. I think most guys who become successful based off of what they've learned from John have learned more about his hunting techniques than anything. If my questions seemed controversial maybe it's just because it's a controversial subject. But to tell somebody they should move on while allowing another member of the site to write up multiple page threads about the advantages of a product, and not just a carbon line suit but the one product in particular would be unfair. My questions can go on answered and that's fine but that's not going to stop me from asking. Especially when I have invested in a product that was sold to me by this person. Maybe not in person but based off of his recommendations and write ups. He seems to be the resident expert on carbon technology so who else am I supposed to ask. And when I ask a question if it's not approved of, now I'm the bad guy. Give me a break.
 
I have a tracking dog and I agree, they use ground disturbance at times. I’ve also had duck dogs that I sent out on a blind retrieve in current flowing waters to a down duck in vegetation. No ground disturbance there. I’d send him out to the down wind side of where the duck fell and you can tell when he instantly hit the scent of the duck then went in for the retrieve. Disclaimer: the duck didn’t have a scentlok suit on, but if scentlok doesn’t completely contain the scent, then a scent would be there for the dog to find, unless the duck was hung up high in a tree and it’s scent was carried over the dog by wind currents.
If a deer is alert and searching out danger before continuing on its path, and scentlok only reduces human odor, then he will smell you if the wind currents are going to the deer, not over or around the deer. If you don’t have a wind checker floating in the wind current, then you really don’t know where your scent is going at the deer’s range. How he reacts to that smell is up to the deer at that time. I’ve had deer in highly pressured areas show signs that they scented me but didn’t spook then another set of deer come through and freak out. It’s all about the personality of that particular deer at the time.
Every test I’ve heard of done, there is always a loop hole that doesn’t cover every possibility. So there is always a way to make claims in your favor no matter what side you are on. I’ve always said I think properly cared for scent lok helps. But it’s no miracle gear. Sometimes all it takes is a reduction of human odor to get a shot off. There are many easier, cheaper ways to accomplish that without a life changing scent reduction regimen. If every scentlok garment and commercial came with a big tag or disclaimer on it stating that you will only notice our claims of hiding your scent if you follow John’s regimen and have 3 pages of how John uses and cares for the garments, and if you don’t, they are no better than any other garment, just hotter and not breathable, then a very high percentage of them will stay on the shelf.
Confidence is a big help in hunting. So do what you are confident in.
 
John Eberhart said:
Excuse me but they only acknowledge it on a test where the human walks and the dog follows the trail. As mentioned any animal with a good nose could follow that. My test wasn't about following a disrupted ground trail.

When a dog knows he is searching for something due to his training and the trainer puts him on a trail with disrupted ground, of course he can track him.
Click to expand...

John I think a lot of us would have better hunting if we could be dropped into the stand from a helicopter. Fact is we still have to walk to the tree.
Whats your thoughts on a simpler test? Field deer frequent nightly, say alfalfa. Tripod stand 100yds off the edge of the woods set in the spring. Enter it from upwind side when wind is blowing into the woods where deer enter. Could a guy following your scentlok regimen climb into that stand and not get busted?
 
kenn1320 said:
John I think a lot of us would have better hunting if we could be dropped into the stand from a helicopter. Fact is we still have to walk to the tree.
Whats your thoughts on a simpler test? Field deer frequent nightly, say alfalfa. Tripod stand 100yds off the edge of the woods set in the spring. Enter it from upwind side when wind is blowing into the woods where deer enter. Could a guy following your scentlok regimen climb into that stand and not get busted?
Click to expand...

I've never been dropped off from a helicopter however I take the entry route with the least chance of spooking deer with my noise or a visual, them winding my entry route if they cross it is never a concern, .ever.

They May smell some ground disruption and may stop for a moment, but they never spook.

Funny that every military on the face of the Earth uses activated carbon in their warfare suits so that the soldiers bodies come in contact with zero chemical chemical molecules.
 
Trust me John... you dont want one of those suits. I know all to well... especially the old suits they turned everything they touched black with carbon. They were awful.. but I suppose I’m a good way of your in the wrong environment...

But for the scent wary fellows one of those suits would literally leak carbon :)
 
huntin_addict said:
I'd bet a dollar on it.
Click to expand...
I think he says he does not receive compensation... maybe his son did or does but I am not sure. I think the science that says it works or at least reduces scent is legitimate but I think most people are not as thorough as John. We will likely never know for sure how well it works because the deer are not talking. I use it for one layer. It is quiet, does not breath well, but is comfortable and may reduce scent. I know if I wear it for a few days it does not smell like under armor or even merino wool which retains human scent. Is that proof it works.... it does something positive. Is it worth it... I guess that is your decision.
I will continue to use it to reduce scent because I think it does.... but I will never be as thorough as John so I play the wind too.
 
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huntin_addict said:
I'd bet a dollar on it.
Click to expand...

In an article titled: Stop the Stink with these 5 scent control tips for deer hunting on the Deer and Deer Hunting website, John stated the following: "I’d like to make it perfectly clear that I’m not paid by ScentLok to endorse its products or technology, but am doing so here only because it works."

I have to admit that I was surprised by that statement and then wondered if they at least sent him free gear? They ought to do both as he's sold an awful lot of their products! :)
 
I will say this to everyone that says it dont work. Take some pine cones, dirt, anything else and put it and a scent loc jacket in a tote. Leave it for a few days. When you open it up you will only smell the scent on the inside of the jacket. Ive don’t it.


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