Dog tests on scent control

[Jasper2]

Try my experiment above your post.
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No offense but if we only had to fool a nose similar to a human nose....this deer hunting thing would be much much easier. Personally, I as well as many others, believe in the carbon technology, it's the validity of the "system" in hunting situations that is usually in question.

 

[ricky racer]

I have no issue with John if he is compensated for promoting Scentlok, I just think he should be up front about it if he is, you know, full disclosure...

 

[ImThere]

No offense but if we only had to fool a nose similar to a human nose....this deer hunting thing would be much much easier. Personally, I as well as many others, believe in the carbon technology, it's the validity of the "system" in hunting situations that is usually in question.

Non taken. I wear scent loc, scent blocker, some type of carbon suit every time I’m in the woods. I don’t remember being busted in a long time other than walking up on deer

What do you consider a system? Do you mean Johns system? Do you mean taking proper care of your scentloc? There’s many steps between what I do and what John does. If I was as serious about hunting and made a living hunting I would probably find myself doing what John does. Maybe more drastic..


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[kenn1320]

Not sure anyone does more than Jim Brauker. Watch his video(ultimate scent control), has dedicated room in his barn to prep for every hunt.. He is also a retired scientist, so has a good understanding of this sort of thing. He has a video showing him get busted, says the carbon gets less effective as the hunt goes on and rate of scent reducing decreases. I think it's only a few hours of hunting and he has to go back thru it all again.

 

[Jasper2]

Non taken. I wear scent loc, scent blocker, some type of carbon suit every time I’m in the woods. I don’t remember being busted in a long time other than walking up on deer
What do you consider a system? Do you mean Johns system? Do you mean taking proper care of your scentloc? There’s many steps between what I do and what John does. If I was as serious about hunting and made a living hunting I would probably find myself doing what John does. Maybe more drastic..
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Sorry I should've clarified that a little more. By system I simply meant everything that is necessary and/or recommended in the scent control process that isn't normally done by the average hunter. In other words you can't simply buy it, replace your current gear and expect instant and total success.

Scientifically, carbon works at least partially but since there are a lot of hunters that have less than stellar results with scent control gear...there's obviously a lot more to it than simply slapping on some carbon gear. I realize there is a lot of ground to cover between what most do and what John does. I actually gave scentlok what I thought was valiant effort many years ago but had much better success hunting 30 feet plus and playing the wind so I went that route instead. I'm not sure what happened but my results were less than stellar. However, now that I'm older and more disciplined, I'm not ruling out the possibility of giving it another shot in the future. The technology had to get better also so who knows?

 

[huck72412]

I will say this to everyone that says it dont work. Take some pine cones, dirt, anything else and put it and a scent loc jacket in a tote. Leave it for a few days. When you open it up you will only smell the scent on the inside of the jacket. Ive don’t it.


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????????

 

[vabwhntr]

I don’t know if ScentLok works for me or not. I do have one pant and jacket and I love it from about 45 degrees and above. I’ve seen John talk about the wind brace for colder temps and I’d like to pick a set up if it goes on sale. Some say it works and some don’t. I wonder if it has to do with each individuals body. Some people smell stronger than others. Some sweat more. Some people sweat when it’s cold out. Maybe those people fill up the carbon faster and more smell gets out faster. I also wonder if people who don’t think it works have done something else unknowingly to put out scent. And for those that do think it works I wonder if their scent is actually going to deer or if thermals are carrying it up and away and they don’t realize it. I do believe being up high like John does makes a difference on where your scent stream goes compared to down in the 15-20 ft range. Whether you believe in it or not I do recommend their clothes as they are comfortable and worth every penny if you get them on sale.

 

[Cajunshooter]

John's experiment wasn't about tracking dogs tracking. John's experiment is ment to take tracking out of the equation. Controlling all variables EXCEPT airborne human scent particles. He then tried to outline a manner in which the dog would move similar to a deer in our hunting area(I believe a much harder variable to simulate absolutely) . But I get the jist, and I think a very sound proposal on a scientific level. John believes his conclusion, based on his years of hunting using scent loc, and using his regime to care for it would leave him undetected. Period. I did read the Rutger's findings. A very reputable source of scientific information. The question now arises, is anyone going to use scent loc for themselves? John uses scent loc, he's happy with it. This along with years of experience have made John a big buck killer in HIS deer woods. He's trying to share that with us. That's great John, and thank you for your last few posts. Some will try it. Frankly I'm intrigued. Some won't. That should be it. I believe in asking questions and being skeptical. We all could talk this thing to death, and I think we have. now we either get out there and try it, or we don't. John, like every other hunter on this site is bringing something that they believe will help their fellow hunter. G2 brought the 5 aider climbing technique just recently. I've been working on it. I'm a knaider/swaider guy . I not sure the 5 step is for me, THAT'S IT. G2 loves it. He brought it forward because he thought someone would benefit from using it, like he's benefitted. Why are we ripping John apart? Why are some trying to debunk his method? It almost sounds personal, and I don't know why it should be. But I have a long list of reasons it shouldn't be. I won't list them because we all know what they are. Agree to disagree, and move on. Adopt scent loc in or don't, and move on. Thank you John for taking the time to post. Now I will decide if it's for me.

First of all I really wish this subject would stop coming up. There are so many other things we can actually put our hands on and know whether they work for us or not.

Second, John’s “Experiment” wasn’t an experiment. It was a scenario that is nothing like deer hunting and will likely never happen. I can assure you my chances of not being winded by a deer would be much better if I didn’t have to trek across the woods, climb up a tree and get setup. Every second that I’m burning energy and breathing hard, I’m leaving a scent. Plus I’m also leaving ground disturbance which at least acts as a pre-alert to the deer.

Third, asking a dog trainer what he thinks would happen in this make believe scenario, when the dog trainer has no practical knowledge of what the Scent Lok suit is or is not capable of, is of little to no value to me or anyone else. It’s all a guess.

I personally am not trying to rip anybody apart. But I have questions. I'm trying to use scent Lok to my advantage. I've had issues with it and I have questions about it. I don't know about dog test. As @I'mthere stated I'm not hunting dogs. I have to walk across the ground to get to where I go. I personally think that John is a very skilled and accomplished hunter. I think most guys who become successful based off of what they've learned from John have learned more about his hunting techniques than anything. If my questions seemed controversial maybe it's just because it's a controversial subject. But to tell somebody they should move on while allowing another member of the site to write up multiple page threads about the advantages of a product, and not just a carbon line suit but the one product in particular would be unfair. My questions can go on answered and that's fine but that's not going to stop me from asking. Especially when I have invested in a product that was sold to me by this person. Maybe not in person but based off of his recommendations and write ups. He seems to be the resident expert on carbon technology so who else am I supposed to ask. And when I ask a question if it's not approved of, now I'm the bad guy. Give me a break.

You deserve a break. There is nothing wrong with asking legitimate questions, although the biggest problem is, they can’t be answered. The more often this subject is brought up, the more controversial the subject will become.

Until man either learns to communicate with deer or build a machine that can accurately replicate the ability of a deers nose and translate that into data able to be interpreted by man, we are always going to be guessing around our own biases.

I have a tracking dog and I agree, they use ground disturbance at times. I’ve also had duck dogs that I sent out on a blind retrieve in current flowing waters to a down duck in vegetation. No ground disturbance there. I’d send him out to the down wind side of where the duck fell and you can tell when he instantly hit the scent of the duck then went in for the retrieve. Disclaimer: the duck didn’t have a scentlok suit on, but if scentlok doesn’t completely contain the scent, then a scent would be there for the dog to find, unless the duck was hung up high in a tree and it’s scent was carried over the dog by wind currents.
If a deer is alert and searching out danger before continuing on its path, and scentlok only reduces human odor, then he will smell you if the wind currents are going to the deer, not over or around the deer. If you don’t have a wind checker floating in the wind current, then you really don’t know where your scent is going at the deer’s range. How he reacts to that smell is up to the deer at that time. I’ve had deer in highly pressured areas show signs that they scented me but didn’t spook then another set of deer come through and freak out. It’s all about the personality of that particular deer at the time.
Every test I’ve heard of done, there is always a loop hole that doesn’t cover every possibility. So there is always a way to make claims in your favor no matter what side you are on. I’ve always said I think properly cared for scent lok helps. But it’s no miracle gear. Sometimes all it takes is a reduction of human odor to get a shot off. There are many easier, cheaper ways to accomplish that without a life changing scent reduction regimen. If every scentlok garment and commercial came with a big tag or disclaimer on it stating that you will only notice our claims of hiding your scent if you follow John’s regimen and have 3 pages of how John uses and cares for the garments, and if you don’t, they are no better than any other garment, just hotter and not breathable, then a very high percentage of them will stay on the shelf.
Confidence is a big help in hunting. So do what you are confident in.

This is exactly correct! I’ve also seen labs swim several hundred yards across a lake in wind and rain, in search of a downed duck that just buried itself in the grass on the far edge of the lake. The dog never saw the duck go down because he was bringing back a retreived duck when this one got shot. When the dog finally got across the lake and made it down wind, it is completely obvious that dog just picked up the ducks scent and the chase is on. That olfactory ability is simply amazing and that had nothing to do with ground disturbances. How in the heck you smell a duck buried under water in the grass is absolutely amazing.

This is why I have stated each time this conversation comes up. I can guarantee you, if a deers ability to smell is as good as a dogs, they can smell your breath, and the more and harder you breath the better they can smell it. So if you walk through the woods and climb up a tree, you have just left a ton of scent behind. If you can’t seal a suit around your face and capture all of your exhaled breath, you are leaving a scent.

Disclosure; I am not trying dispel Scent Lok or John, I also use a full Scent Lok suit every time I go out when the temps are under 70 degrees. I have even gone a step further than John and wore the head cover and all, while walking out and up the tree. Which is not fun, and I have gotten busted quite a few times. I think one of my problems is, I seldom ever have any wind and probably have thermals working against me in most cases. I also believe that I get better results when I am up over 20 feet. Notice I didn’t say I know, but rather I believe? I’m guessing based on my experience.

Here’s the bottom line of this whole discussion. We have no real way of knowing or detecting exactly what deer can smell or how they interpret smells. We are all guessing using our own experiences and hearsay. There is also no way to accurately measure just how much scent a Scent Lok suit traps when a hunter is walking out into the woods and climbing up a tree. Also anyone saying Scent Lok did this for me or didn’t do this for me, has so many other variables surrounding the Scent Lok suit, it makes the opinion just that. One mans opinion.

Everything else said on this subject as it applies to deer hunting is purely anecdotal and not empirical or scientific.

So if you feel like it and can afford it, buy Scent Lok and use it because it is hunting attire, if you just can’t afford it and you’re doubtful whether it will help or not, by all means save your money for something you know will help you.


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[EricS]

@denots I hunt in similar temperatures as you. Even when I’m sweating through my suit it seems to work. What I have done this year is during the early season I only wear scentlok when hunting within 150 yards of the truck on preset trees. I wear the savannah crosshair pants and jacket. It’s miserably hot. I have washed it too much and it’s lost a lot of it’s effectiveness about half way through it’s second season. I buy my stuff on close out and it’s as good a pair of hunting pants you will buy for 49.99. It’s quiet and has awesome pockets. Even though it’s lost much of its scent control abilities they are still nice pants. Same can be said for the jacket. The head cover is on closeout for 8.99. Cheap as any decent non scent control headcover. I’m going to try to not wash mine next year and see how they last. It’s still going to have to be dried after every weekend. I’m just going to experiment with it myself I may try smoking some clothes also but wearing the scentlok headcover once I get on stand. I have allergies and would be completely messed up if I smoked my headcover. Scentlok is just another tool hunters can use to increase their odds of being successful. If I bowhunted fairly open areas and had to choose between a scentlok suit and a rangefinder I would buy the rangefinder. Accessing a hunting area via kayak is great but won’t help me if I have no floatable creeks in the area I hunt. They are all just tools.

 

[ImThere]

????????

You will smell the scents on the inside of the jacket not the out side. It will soak up all the scent.


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[denots]

Just to be clear I want everybody to know that I have not doubted activated carbon ability to absorb odor. I don't even doubt Rucker's claims of 96 to 99%. My original question to John was about contaminating scents on the outside. To be fair that was in another thread and maybe this should be posted there but this is where I'm putting it. It was a question I had about sodium bicarbonate being used in Scent killer sprays. He made a statement that those baking soda particles in the spray can be detected if on the outside of my suit. So my question was can his suit not be contaminated from him sneezing and expelling moisture droplets or dropping hair and skin follicles in his van and then contaminating the outside of his clothing by picking up said particles an odor molecules before he gets out on the outside of suit. I thought it was fair. This was just one of many questions I had. Most of which are based off of my experiences and use of scentlok in the south. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have gotten past the first question. I get it John probably gets some unnecessary flack from some people who are overly harsh. But to be fair John is pretty adamant in his claims and I don't believe he always considers the differences between living almost in Canada and living almost in the Gulf of Mexico. I don't think he is trying to rip anybody off or steal from them. I honestly believe he thinks he is helping. But I do believe his statements can sometimes seem contradictory, or at the very least don't put enough emphasis on the ability of scentlok to be effective based on differences in geographical locations. I must say I was a bit put off on the way he handled my question. He did apologize, and I accepted his apology. Hopefully this will be an eye-opener to everybody on both sides of the argument. I've actually sent John a message and asked him if possibly we could do a question-and-answer thread geared more towards the use scentlok by southern hunters. I don't know that he'll accept the offer or not and if he chooses not to do so I'm going to respect that he wants to just leave it be, and drop it. But I think if he chooses to do the question-and-answer segment I want to make sure the questions are asked in a fair and respectful manner, and give him the opportunity to answer them. To be honest I would be glad for him to just do a write-up based solely on this one topic and allow people to ask questions on their own. As for scentlok is concerned, I agree for the price you pay on clearance that they are good clothes for the money. I think if I would have bought them with the idea that they were just going to be decent hunting clothes my thoughts about them would be different. But I bought them based on their ability to stop me from getting busted in the woods. So far this has not been my experience. Best of luck to anyone who has any hunting left to do. Merry Christmas to everybody!

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[huck72412]

You will smell the scents on the inside of the jacket not the out side. It will soak up all the scent.


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Forgive my moment of utter brainlessness.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

Activated charcoal, or activated carbon, is used for its absorbent properties. In aquarium filters it traps bacteria, and in poisoning cases it absorbs the contents of the victim's stomach. When placed near something with a strong smell, it absorbs the odor, making it useful for controlling litter box smells.

@huck72412 So Huck I saw this on the internet... if it works for kitty litter, It will work for diapers. Merry Christmas Brother. And get that child trained - potty training works even better than carbon.

 

[bigjoe]

Now, I say this with respect to all. I have not spent the time in the woods in recent years as I did in my earlier years. Nor do I have the BOONErs that a lot of others have, however I have killed my fair share of deer.

Years before carbon activated suits, I would wash my clothes and prep them as I was taught. Once the clothes were dried we would take the clothes and put them in garbage bags filled with leaves and pine needles and cedar. I would rub an apple on myself to further help mask my scent and put Coon and fox urine on my boots. Utmost care was taken when bow hunting. I was taught by my father to hunt like this. It was not a game for him, it was meat on the table. We did this for gun season and bow seasons.
I personally believe that scent lok helps to reduce that foot print to where you can have a chance at taking a deer without having to do a lot of what we did back 30-40 yrs ago. Man I hated the smell of the urine
Anything you can do to reduce your scent foot print, will help. You are never going to get rid of all your scent but if you can reduce it enough to give you a chance, that is all that is needed. Another thing that John mentions is the reduction of coffee, spices, red meat, shaving your body hair etc. I have been doing that for years for deer season. Hair holds your body odor. If you have stinky pits, shave your arm pits, you will be amazed all of a sudden you may not need deodorant. Another thing is guys on a low carb diet, your body chemistry changes and you smell differently.

 

[huck72412]

Activated charcoal, or activated carbon, is used for its absorbent properties. In aquarium filters it traps bacteria, and in poisoning cases it absorbs the contents of the victim's stomach. When placed near something with a strong smell, it absorbs the odor, making it useful for controlling litter box smells.

@huck72412 So Huck I saw this on the internet... if it works for kitty litter, It will work for diapers. Merry Christmas Brother. And get that child trained - potty training works even better than carbon.

LOL!!!

 

[kenn1320]

Denots, your question is legit and one people don't want to answer. I spoke with several trainers and was told drugs cannot be hidden in jars or objects because the scent falls onto the container when placing substances inside. Going into the second container some scent off the first container contaminates the second. Plus that scent is on the handler which also gets on second container and so on. I've asked same question and mentioned this info. You are contaminating the outside just putting it on, so you will still smell like a human on the outside of the suit.

 

[swampsnyper]

Drink more eggnog. Kill a button buck and be happy. Don’t let @denots ruin Christmas for everyone!

 

[denots]

Drink more eggnog. Kill a button buck and be happy. Don’t let @denots ruin Christmas for everyone!

Hehehehe

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[boyne bowhunter]

I’ve been hesitant to weigh in on this as I don’t want to be part of the “Pro” vs. “Con” scentlok disagreement. I think we can all agree to disagree on the subject and pick and choose how we as individuals decide to hunt.

Let me start by clarifying that I do wear scentlok when hunting ands have for better that 10 years. While I still occasionally get winded I think it has improved my odds. I don't automatically get winded by a downwind deer as it seemed I used to. I don’t take my scent control to the level of John’s but I do try to pay attention to keeping myself as scent free as I can including using scent-free soap products. I’ll take any potential advantage I can get. That said, a great portion of my season is spent hunting remotely from a camper and showers are hard to come by. I typically will go 3-4 days between trips home for a shower. Over the years I have made the interesting observation that I’m much more likely to get winded on day one when I’m “clean” than I am on day four when I consider myself “gross”. I believe this is because the inevitable scents from home are more foreign to a deer’s nose than my weeklong BO.

Personally my biggest scent control obsession is my boots. I figure they contact the ground everywhere I go and to that end I want them as scent free as possible. I wear rubber boots and I NEVER, NEVER handle my boots on the outside below the top two inches necessary to pull them on. Did I say NEVER. When I buy them I wash them with baking soda and put them upside down on a post outside for two weeks. After that I never handle them on the outside surfaces or wear them anywhere but the woods. I even take them off if I forget something and need to step in the camper for a second. They are stored in open top plastic bags or ride in open plastic totes under my pickup tonneau cover (I don’t want to close in the foot stench by sealing them in anything).

I also pay attention to the wind and choose my hunting spots for the day/sit based on the expected prevailing wind direction for the sit. I’ll try to make my tree selection once in the area based on the local wind and once I’m set up I don’t monitor the wind once in the tree. After I’m set up I’m going to live with the wind direction, I can’t control where the deer are going to come from anyway. I‘ve already made my best guess move deciding where to go before I climbed.

One thing we all need to keep in mind is that each time we go into the woods, whether it be preseason scouting or for a sit, we are scouting. We are learning about the deer in that area and how they move through it. At the same time we are also educating the deer as they pick up where we passed through and setup. The idea is to learn more than we teach. I think that is ultimately the secret behind John’s success. He has developed a method that works for him to get in, learn what he needs and get out without providing too much education of the herd. Once he’s learned what he needs he can get in the right spot for the ambush of the buck he's targeting. My hat is off to him for that.

Depending on the property you’re hunting there may be other methods that work.

Two examples that come to mind are agricultural properties and urban properties where they see a lot of normal people traffic. Deer get accustomed to it and pay it almost no attention as long as it falls within normal routine. Deer in the backyard of my Mother’s house in an urban setting would hang out in the backyard with you if you just went about your business. However, pay any undue attention and they’d be gone in an instant. If you can scout under the guise of the normal routine then you may be able to learn without educating the herd much. Bottom line is you just need to be smarter than the deer . . . If it was only as easy as it sounds.

 

[vabwhntr]

I’ve been hesitant to weigh in on this as I don’t want to be part of the “Pro” vs. “Con” scentlok disagreement. I think we can all agree to disagree on the subject and pick and choose how we as individuals decide to hunt.

Let me start by clarifying that I do wear scentlok when hunting ands have for better that 10 years. While I still occasionally get winded I think it has improved my odds. I don't automatically get winded by a downwind deer as it seemed I used to. I don’t take my scent control to the level of John’s but I do try to pay attention to keeping myself as scent free as I can including using scent-free soap products. I’ll take any potential advantage I can get. That said, a great portion of my season is spent hunting remotely from a camper and showers are hard to come by. I typically will go 3-4 days between trips home for a shower. Over the years I have made the interesting observation that I’m much more likely to get winded on day one when I’m “clean” than I am on day four when I consider myself “gross”. I believe this is because the inevitable scents from home are more foreign to a deer’s nose than my weeklong BO.

Personally my biggest scent control obsession is my boots. I figure they contact the ground everywhere I go and to that end I want them as scent free as possible. I wear rubber boots and I NEVER, NEVER handle my boots on the outside below the top two inches necessary to pull them on. Did I say NEVER. When I buy them I wash them with baking soda and put them upside down on a post outside for two weeks. After that I never handle them on the outside surfaces or wear them anywhere but the woods. I even take them off if I forget something and need to step in the camper for a second. They are stored in open top plastic bags or ride in open plastic totes under my pickup tonneau cover (I don’t want to close in the foot stench by sealing them in anything).

I also pay attention to the wind and choose my hunting spots for the day/sit based on the expected prevailing wind direction for the sit. I’ll try to make my tree selection once in the area based on the local wind and once I’m set up I don’t monitor the wind once in the tree. After I’m set up I’m going to live with the wind direction, I can’t control where the deer are going to come from anyway. I‘ve already made my best guess move deciding where to go before I climbed.

One thing we all need to keep in mind is that each time we go into the woods, whether it be preseason scouting or for a sit, we are scouting. We are learning about the deer in that area and how they move through it. At the same time we are also educating the deer as they pick up where we passed through and setup. The idea is to learn more than we teach. I think that is ultimately the secret behind John’s success. He has developed a method that works for him to get in, learn what he needs and get out without providing too much education of the herd. Once he’s learned what he needs he can get in the right spot for the ambush of the buck he's targeting. My hat is off to him for that.

Depending on the property you’re hunting there may be other methods that work.

Two examples that come to mind are agricultural properties and urban properties where they see a lot of normal people traffic. Deer get accustomed to it and pay it almost no attention as long as it falls within normal routine. Deer in the backyard of my Mother’s house in an urban setting would hang out in the backyard with you if you just went about your business. However, pay any undue attention and they’d be gone in an instant. If you can scout under the guise of the normal routine then you may be able to learn without educating the herd much. Bottom line is you just need to be smarter than the deer . . . If it was only as easy as it sounds.

You need the Coleman H2oasis. Great portable shower system. Best money I ever spent on something hunting related. Runs off 1 pound propane cylinders. 1 charge and cylinder does 40 gallons of water. 5 gallons does 3 showers easily for me.