A post for the Moderators… ALSO!!! Who is making bedding cuts on their land?

[Halfstep]

I don't know what state you're in but here in central illinois if there's no management the oak forest will cease to exist in the future. We've got honeysuckle shading out any seedlings that the deer don't eat. Or you've got open floor heavy canopy areas and the deer easily find any oaks that sprout and again eat them up. In these scenarios some intervention is necessary to perpetuate a hardwood forest. Otherwise you'll leave behind a woodland bound to be overrun with locust, elm, Hackberry and other less desirable trees in the future.

I'm hoping that now I'm retiring to have time to reintroduce fire to my small woodland. I'll have to kill honeysuckle and autumn olive first. That will improve the browse substantially.

I'm in southeast Missouri. We have thousands of acres of hardwood forest around here that gets little to no management, and the oaks seem to be doing just fine. It may be different where you are though, but not here. The loggers are harder on the hardwood forest than anything else. But where there is national or state forest land, the oaks are doing fine.

This part of the country was once home to the biggest sawmill in the world, and they spent over 30 years logging out all the giant white pine that once dominated the landscape. Once the pine where gone, oak grew abundantly and took over. Now over 100 years later, the oak is well established.

Other than oak dominate forest land, we have pasture ground. Around here, good hunting greatly depends on a healthy and plentiful acorn crop. If not, we are stuck hunting the edges of pastures. Planting a good clover patch is a great way to attract deer especially if there is a weak acorn crop.

I have nothing against land management, and it is necessary in some places just to compete with the neighbors. I think planting different varieties of food plots and fruit trees are a good way to supplement the deer's diet.

One thing I often do is anytime I am out and about and find some nice acorns from different varieties of oaks, I grab a couple handfuls of those acorns and take them with me and plant them in other areas I go to. I do other trees as well. Maybe 75 years from now after I am dead and gone, there might be some young bow hunter who will be sitting by one of those trees I planted and kill a deer.

 

[Phopkins]

I'm in southeast Missouri. We have thousands of acres of hardwood forest around here that gets little to no management, and the oaks seem to be doing just fine. It may be different where you are though, but not here. The loggers are harder on the hardwood forest than anything else. But where there is national or state forest land, the oaks are doing fine.

This part of the country was once home to the biggest sawmill in the world, and they spent over 30 years logging out all the giant white pine that once dominated the landscape. Once the pine where gone, oak grew abundantly and took over. Now over 100 years later, the oak is well established.

Other than oak dominate forest land, we have pasture ground. Around here, good hunting greatly depends on a healthy and plentiful acorn crop. If not, we are stuck hunting the edges of pastures. Planting a good clover patch is a great way to attract deer especially if there is a weak acorn crop.

I have nothing against land management, and it is necessary in some places just to compete with the neighbors. I think planting different varieties of food plots and fruit trees are a good way to supplement the deer's diet.

One thing I often do is anytime I am out and about and find some nice acorns from different varieties of oaks, I grab a couple handfuls of those acorns and take them with me and plant them in other areas I go to. I do other trees as well. Maybe 75 years from now after I am dead and gone, there might be some young bow hunter who will be sitting by one of those trees I planted and kill a deer.

Understood. Really it is a matter of deer density. It's the deer that quash oak regrowth in a hardwood forest. They eat them off as saplings. If you have too many deer those oaks you plant won't ever live to produce acorns.
And in this country the honeysuckle grabs the sunlight before an oak sprout gets a chance.

 

[BTaylor]

I'm in southeast Missouri. We have thousands of acres of hardwood forest around here that gets little to no management, and the oaks seem to be doing just fine. It may be different where you are though, but not here. The loggers are harder on the hardwood forest than anything else. But where there is national or state forest land, the oaks are doing fine.

This part of the country was once home to the biggest sawmill in the world, and they spent over 30 years logging out all the giant white pine that once dominated the landscape. Once the pine where gone, oak grew abundantly and took over. Now over 100 years later, the oak is well established.

Other than oak dominate forest land, we have pasture ground. Around here, good hunting greatly depends on a healthy and plentiful acorn crop. If not, we are stuck hunting the edges of pastures. Planting a good clover patch is a great way to attract deer especially if there is a weak acorn crop.

I have nothing against land management, and it is necessary in some places just to compete with the neighbors. I think planting different varieties of food plots and fruit trees are a good way to supplement the deer's diet.

One thing I often do is anytime I am out and about and find some nice acorns from different varieties of oaks, I grab a couple handfuls of those acorns and take them with me and plant them in other areas I go to. I do other trees as well. Maybe 75 years from now after I am dead and gone, there might be some young bow hunter who will be sitting by one of those trees I planted and kill a deer.

It may seem counter intuitive but the best 2 tools you can use to increase the carry capacity and year round quality of your ground for all critters is a chainsaw and a drip torch. The farm I help manage is just a few miles from the MO border in north central AR so I am very familiar with the type of ground you are dealing with.

 

[Glenn]

It may seem counter intuitive but the best 2 tools you can use to increase the carry capacity and year round quality of your ground for all critters is a chainsaw and a drip torch. The farm I help manage is just a few miles from the MO border in north central AR so I am very familiar with the type of ground you are dealing with.

Bingo.

I hunt an area of public that is dominated by large closed canopy hardwood forest. Which is great when there are acorns. But it's a monoculture and on years when acorns are scarce, there is little to no early successional forest or edge habitat. Little to no forbs, grasses etc and on those years, the deer, turkeys et al, starve. Hardwoods are great but they need to be thinned and managed with fire as well.

The best thing to happen to this particular area was a couple of doses of twisters that essentially clear cut a few thousand acres and thinned a whole bunch more. In a couple of years the deer and turkey population is going to explode. I HOPE they see fit to burn these areas on about a 3 year rotation to keep the gum and maple out and let it be briars and grasses. If not it'll be a food desert thicket in 5 years. I'm hopeful but alas my faith in .gov isn't as strong as I'd like it to be to do that. We'll see.

 

[Halfstep]

It may seem counter intuitive but the best 2 tools you can use to increase the carry capacity and year round quality of your ground for all critters is a chainsaw and a drip torch. The farm I help manage is just a few miles from the MO border in north central AR so I am very familiar with the type of ground you are dealing with.

Logging is a big part of life here is southeast Missouri. So, the chainsaw is always echoing in the background. In my personal experience, I haven't seen any real improvements that were created by a chainsaw. The good crop bearing oaks that were cut down were better for deer habitat that the briar patches that come after logging. I had a neighbor that logged, and he talked about how good logging was for deer hunting. But he never hunted on logged off ground, he always hunted in good healthy standing timber.

I think the #1 thing one can do for deer habitat is to create a good sustainable food source. Around here, we have no crops to supplement deer throughout the spring and summer. All we have is forest and pasture so when you cut down the oaks, you eliminate the major fall/winter food source, and the deer just move over to where there are more mature oaks.

As for cover, there is plenty of cover here for deer so creating more with a chainsaw is not making any real improvements. There is no distinct "feeding areas" and "bedding areas" around here. Deer feed and bed all over and have no repeatable feeding/bedding habits. The distinct feeding/bedding areas are much more applicable in areas with crop land and larger deer populations.

I am sure in other parts of the country that creating cover and doing some controlled burning is profitable for deer habitat. But I think one needs to evaluate their existing habitat and do what works for them and not just do what others do for the sake of doing.

Since there is no crop land around here, I have had some awesome experiences with planting some food plots. It would really attract and hold deer in my hunting area and make for a lot of good hunting opportunities. I like using clover as it stays green throughout the fall and winter and offers some late season foraging for the deer.

As for hunting on land that has been logged up to 20 years ago, I have never much any success. I always hunt around good timber with healthy oaks for that is where the fall deer activity always will be.

 

[LAKY]

I think the #1 thing one can do for deer habitat is to create a good sustainable food source.

And, the best way to do that on a large scale is to provide browse and mast. Forest stand improvement can be done in a way that creates early successional plant communities as well as releases your best acorn producing trees. Oaks produce more acorns if competition is reduced. This gives the best of both. Mature oaks with hardly any new oaks coming up underneath provides little food except during the time of acorn production. For the rest of the time, there is little food to support deer. Oaks need sunlight to regenerate and grow, otherwise you have species that are shade tolerant coming up and replacing them.

 

[Glenn]

And, the best way to do that on a large scale is to provide browse and mast. Forest stand improvement can be done in a way that creates early successional plant communities as well as releases your best acorn producing trees. Oaks produce more acorns if competition is reduced. This gives the best of both. Mature oaks with hardly any new oaks coming up underneath provides little food except during the time of acorn production. For the rest of the time, there is little food to support deer. Oaks need sunlight to regenerate and grow, otherwise you have species that are shade tolerant coming up and replacing them.

Agree. Timber management doesn't always equal clear cut. Thinning hardwoods to somewhere between 40 and 60 basal square feet per acre combined with fire is a sight to behold and a deer/game magnet. Open grassland and clear cuts burned in either spring or fall produce tons of free food in the form of grasses and forbs that will run around 15-22% crude protein and provide cover for ground nesting birds as well as excellent fawning cover. Grant Woods has proven what can be done in the Ozark area of Missouri and it is quite impressive. It's a combination of TSI, no till food plot plantings and fire, fire, fire. His results speak for themselves.

 

[BTaylor]

I hope you dont take this as me trying to argue with you as that is not my intent, however I feel there are several aspects of habitat management you may not have experienced or been exposed too. I thinks it's important to point them out even if you have no interest, others in a similar situation may be.

When starting with a closed canopy forest like we are dealing with in your area and mine, there are a number of different ways to go. Clear cutting is an option or different types of select cutting can be used. If the cuts are for habitat improvement as well as timber stand improvement, a good bit of thought and planning should go into how the cuts are laid out. The results of a well planned and well executed cut will open the canopy a predetermined amount putting sunlight on the forest floor. That will result in grass and forb growth in the timber. You can release good mast trees allowing them to expand their crowns with less or no interference. A fuller crown that gets more light to all of the crown will produce more mast. That is readily evident by comparing field edge oaks to the same size trees buried in the forest. It is not difficult to vary the percentage of open canopy and influence understory growth. In some areas maybe the canopy is opened to 40% and others opened and thinned to savannah level. Employing fire after the cuts encourages understory growth and will improve nutrient and water cycling in the timber stands. Helps with ticks too. When you use fire is going to encourage grasses or forbs depending on timing. Forest with significant grass and forb components provide WAY more year round food than acorns and food plots could ever hope to compete with. They also provide important cover for fawning as well as turkey nesting and feeding not to mention all the other critters that benefit from added food and cover.

Deer live in these closed canopy forest that we are used to seeing because they dont have a choice. They have that and at least in our area, fescue pasture. Because they are there doesnt mean it is good habitat or that it even begins to provide everything they need to reach their full potential.

Here's an article on nutrition from our neck of the woods.

Nutritional Requirements of White-tailed Deer in Missouri | MU Extension

White-tailed deer rely on a variety of foods for nutrients. Learn how to enhance habitat on your property to maintain a healthy white-tailed deer population. | White-tailed deer managementThis deer conservation guide is one in a series developed jointly by MU Extension and the Missouri...

extension.missouri.edu

 

[Glenn]

I hope you dont take this as me trying to argue with you as that is not my intent, however I feel there are several aspects of habitat management you may not have experienced or been exposed too. I thinks it's important to point them out even if you have no interest, others in a similar situation may be.

When starting with a closed canopy forest like we are dealing with in your area and mine, there are a number of different ways to go. Clear cutting is an option or different types of select cutting can be used. If the cuts are for habitat improvement as well as timber stand improvement, a good bit of thought and planning should go into how the cuts are laid out. The results of a well planned and well executed cut will open the canopy a predetermined amount putting sunlight on the forest floor. That will result in grass and forb growth in the timber. You can release good mast trees allowing them to expand their crowns with less or no interference. A fuller crown that gets more light to all of the crown will produce more mast. That is readily evident by comparing field edge oaks to the same size trees buried in the forest. It is not difficult to vary the percentage of open canopy and influence understory growth. In some areas maybe the canopy is opened to 40% and others opened and thinned to savannah level. Employing fire after the cuts encourages understory growth and will improve nutrient and water cycling in the timber stands. Helps with ticks too. When you use fire is going to encourage grasses or forbs depending on timing. Forest with significant grass and forb components provide WAY more year round food than acorns and food plots could ever hope to compete with. They also provide important cover for fawning as well as turkey nesting and feeding not to mention all the other critters that benefit from added food and cover.

Deer live in these closed canopy forest that we are used to seeing because they dont have a choice. They have that and at least in our area, fescue pasture. Because they are there doesnt mean it is good habitat or that it even begins to provide everything they need to reach their full potential.

Here's an article on nutrition from our neck of the woods.

Nutritional Requirements of White-tailed Deer in Missouri | MU Extension

White-tailed deer rely on a variety of foods for nutrients. Learn how to enhance habitat on your property to maintain a healthy white-tailed deer population. | White-tailed deer managementThis deer conservation guide is one in a series developed jointly by MU Extension and the Missouri...

extension.missouri.edu

And boom goes the dynamite!

 

[BackSpasm]

I hope you dont take this as me trying to argue with you as that is not my intent, however I feel there are several aspects of habitat management you may not have experienced or been exposed too. I thinks it's important to point them out even if you have no interest, others in a similar situation may be.

When starting with a closed canopy forest like we are dealing with in your area and mine, there are a number of different ways to go. Clear cutting is an option or different types of select cutting can be used. If the cuts are for habitat improvement as well as timber stand improvement, a good bit of thought and planning should go into how the cuts are laid out. The results of a well planned and well executed cut will open the canopy a predetermined amount putting sunlight on the forest floor. That will result in grass and forb growth in the timber. You can release good mast trees allowing them to expand their crowns with less or no interference. A fuller crown that gets more light to all of the crown will produce more mast. That is readily evident by comparing field edge oaks to the same size trees buried in the forest. It is not difficult to vary the percentage of open canopy and influence understory growth. In some areas maybe the canopy is opened to 40% and others opened and thinned to savannah level. Employing fire after the cuts encourages understory growth and will improve nutrient and water cycling in the timber stands. Helps with ticks too. When you use fire is going to encourage grasses or forbs depending on timing. Forest with significant grass and forb components provide WAY more year round food than acorns and food plots could ever hope to compete with. They also provide important cover for fawning as well as turkey nesting and feeding not to mention all the other critters that benefit from added food and cover.

Deer live in these closed canopy forest that we are used to seeing because they dont have a choice. They have that and at least in our area, fescue pasture. Because they are there doesnt mean it is good habitat or that it even begins to provide everything they need to reach their full potential.

Here's an article on nutrition from our neck of the woods.

Nutritional Requirements of White-tailed Deer in Missouri | MU Extension

White-tailed deer rely on a variety of foods for nutrients. Learn how to enhance habitat on your property to maintain a healthy white-tailed deer population. | White-tailed deer managementThis deer conservation guide is one in a series developed jointly by MU Extension and the Missouri...

extension.missouri.edu

Couldn't agree more ^

 

[krub6b]

The best thing to happen to this particular area was a couple of doses of twisters that essentially clear cut a few thousand acres and thinned a whole bunch more. In a couple of years the deer and turkey population is going to explode. I HOPE they see fit to burn these areas on about a 3 year rotation to keep the gum and maple out and let it be briars and grasses. If not it'll be a food desert thicket in 5 years. I'm hopeful but alas my faith in .gov isn't as strong as I'd like it to be to do that. We'll see.

I'd start making some phone calls to people involved in habitat management or in the education and outreach side of your DNR/Conservation/AG department. Sounds like they could use that piece of ground as a workshop to teach habitat/fire management workshops or maybe have a local conservation group help support the .gov's effort to improve the wildlife habitat on that piece of public

 

[Iron_llama]

Anyone ever use domestic livestock as a habitat tool? Fence off an area and let a dozen or so goats eat all the underbrush, or pigs till up (and fertilize) the plot, for a season, slaughter them off, and let the deer back on it. I've got some invasive species on my land and have done a bit of reading on using goats and pigs that way.

 

[BTaylor]

Anyone ever use domestic livestock as a habitat tool? Fence off an area and let a dozen or so goats eat all the underbrush, or pigs till up (and fertilize) the plot, for a season, slaughter them off, and let the deer back on it. I've got some invasive species on my land and have done a bit of reading on using goats and pigs that way.

I wouldnt put pigs on anything other than the smoker. My concern with goats would be they are going to eat everything. If you could train them to be selective to the invasives would be awesome. I still think fire and a saw are your best options for the invasives or targeted herbicide use depending on what you are dealing with. Plot wise, I would prefer a mobile chicken coup set up that could be moved around the plot.

 

[Arkie]

I’ve mainly hunted public the last few years, but I have had access to ~120 acres that I’ll hunt a couple times each year. I always have good bucks on it, I pulled my card the other day and had quite a few shooter bucks.

The land has about a 15 acre pine stand on it, roughly 15 years old. The rest is all oaks and has a handful of small open fields (1-3 acres each) throughout.

I plan on putting some work into it this year. Looking forward to a little bit of a change. I’m the only one that has access to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Phopkins]

Anyone ever use domestic livestock as a habitat tool? Fence off an area and let a dozen or so goats eat all the underbrush, or pigs till up (and fertilize) the plot, for a season, slaughter them off, and let the deer back on it. I've got some invasive species on my land and have done a bit of reading on using goats and pigs that way.

Pigs and cows grazing/browsing the forest was common practice in Illinois 75 years ago. Some Woodlore still haven't recovered.
The only way that works with goats is by rotational grazing and very close monitoring.

 

[Iron_llama]

Pigs and cows grazing/browsing the forest was common practice in Illinois 75 years ago. Some Woodlore still haven't recovered.
The only way that works with goats is by rotational grazing and very close monitoring.

That's a good point. I was thinking short-term deployments. A friend in AZ cleared his property by staking out goats, moving them around every day then broadcasting seed after they moved on. Actually the 'stakes' were 2' chunks of abandoned railroad he found in the desert. Goats were tasty when the project was done.