1TC?

[TNSTAAFL]

This is an untested idea. I only created a thread because posting helps me process my thoughts, and feedback from others on here also helps. I would go out and try this but it's too cold and snowy to want to get out and experiment on trees right now.

Reading & watching so much JRB material combined with reading & watching so much 2TC material has my brain fixated on a hybrid approach.

Keep in mind, you'll probably only understand what I am talking about if you have watched and/or used many JRB concepts as well as have familiarity with 2TC.

Materials:
One single rope of desired climb/rappel length (no quick link needed)
One friction hitch plus biner to connect rope to saddle bridge (JRB Ascender hitch seems like an excellent choice).
One Garda foot loop (including 2 biners or tied directly to a 2nd JRB AscenderHitch)
2 extra biners to serve as toggles
1 belay device of choice (or use one of the toggle biners above with a Munter)

Setup:
Use a bite of rope to attach tether end of rope to the tree using a "Saddle Hunters' Hitch" with one long descending line and the other left short (assuming you don't want to have 2 full length lines for release...see rappel note below) Use toggle biner #1 to close hitch. Alternatively you could just use a standard girth hitch with/ without a quick link for this top tether attachment. Just trying to avoid such in order to lose the heavy quick link and stick to some JRB principles. Plus I like how the toggle biner on the SHH facilitates raising the tether without reaching into a girth hitch.

Attach friction hitch to descending line and to saddle bridge.

Take a bite of the descending line (below your friction hitch) and make another Saddle Hunter's Hitch below your top attachment. Use toggle biner #2 to close the hitch. You will have a descending line and a line heading back up to your bridge attachment point.

Attach your Garda foot loop to the lower descending line. This really could be any foot loop and attachment method. Again, just sticking to some JRB stuff and I like how easy it is to make adjustments using the Garda.

Use 2TC maneuvers to make your climb (stand in Garda and wrap leg around tree while advancing top SHH). Sit in saddle and advance the lower SHH. Use toggles to help advance the SHH's. At height remove the lower SHH, attach belay method and rappel down when finished. There will be some necessary adjustments to top hitch to convert to a remote releasable version (I haven't worked through this very well in my mind yet). Unless you stick with normal girth hitch/quick link attachment for top tether, in which case, let her rip!

Remember, this is just an idea to discuss. Never been tried, and I'm just some dude on the internet.

Perceived benefits/tradeoffs:
One 40 ft climbing rope only instead of two 8 ft ropes.

No quick link needed (depending on top tether attachment method).

Ease, fun, and safety of rappel descent (which to be fair some veteran 2TC'ers say is not desired...but in my mind seems like a huge improvement).

No throw ball or throw line cube (compared to SRT, JRB, or MRS).

 

[NMSbowhunter]

I'll be interested to see what others with experience have to say. I just dipped my little toe into 2TC and I have only watched some of the JRB videos, so I don't have any experience to draw from on this. It seems feasible. I am interested in 2TC or something similar for climbing trees without a decent limb within DRT reach. We have a lot of "telephone poles" and thought I do have a climber, I want options.

 

[rswink]

So, 2TC using opposite ends of the same rope?

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[jhunter13]

@TNSTAAFL - Im following you 100%. Ive played around in my head with a similar approach with the saddle hunters hitch for one sticking to pass limbs without the need for a second linesman rope. Only one way to find out....go find a tree and let us know!

 

[jhunter13]

So, 2TC using opposite ends of the same rope?

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Not opposite ends. If Im following him correctly he means a full length rappel rope and simply offsetting the ends of his top saddle hunters hitch where one is longer and create a second saddle hunter hitch with the longer end. If you havent watched any of JRB's videos I doubt any of this makes any sense.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

Not opposite ends. If Im following him correctly he means a full length reppel rope and simply offsetting the ends of his top saddle hunters hitch where one is longer and create a second saddle hunter hitch with the longer end. If you havent watched any of JRB's videos I doubt any of this makes any sense.

Exactly. Both your description of my idea, and your confirmation that without JRB video experience this is probably hard to understand.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

So, 2TC using opposite ends of the same rope?

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I suppose this is a simpler version than what I have proposed. My idea was creating two independently operable hitches towards the same end of a single rope.

Using opposite ends could work also, but would require using quick links on one or both ends.

Both approaches appear to facilitate 2TC style climbing while combining a rappel descent, without having to have a rappel line and a separate tether (less total rope by dual purposing your kit).

 

[jhunter13]

Exactly. Both your description of my idea, and your confirmation that without JRB video experience this is probably hard to understand.

I think you can definitely do it, but wonder if youd like it. I prefer to keep anything attached to the tree "simple" to reduce the chances of my own stupidity getting in the way

 

[gcr0003]

@John RB already demonstrates this in his JRB hitch climbing video. Is this not similar to what you’re describing?

 

[John RB]

This is an untested idea. I only created a thread because posting helps me process my thoughts, and feedback from others on here also helps. I would go out and try this but it's too cold and snowy to want to get out and experiment on trees right now.

Reading & watching so much JRB material combined with reading & watching so much 2TC material has my brain fixated on a hybrid approach.

Keep in mind, you'll probably only understand what I am talking about if you have watched and/or used many JRB concepts as well as have familiarity with 2TC.

Materials:
One single rope of desired climb/rappel length (no quick link needed)
One friction hitch plus biner to connect rope to saddle bridge (JRB Ascender hitch seems like an excellent choice).
One Garda foot loop (including 2 biners or tied directly to a 2nd JRB AscenderHitch)
2 extra biners to serve as toggles
1 belay device of choice (or use one of the toggle biners above with a Munter)

Setup:
Use a bite of rope to attach tether end of rope to the tree using a "Saddle Hunters' Hitch" with one long descending line and the other left short (assuming you don't want to have 2 full length lines for release...see rappel note below) Use toggle biner #1 to close hitch. Alternatively you could just use a standard girth hitch with/ without a quick link for this top tether attachment. Just trying to avoid such in order to lose the heavy quick link and stick to some JRB principles. Plus I like how the toggle biner on the SHH facilitates raising the tether without reaching into a girth hitch.

Attach friction hitch to descending line and to saddle bridge.

Take a bite of the descending line (below your friction hitch) and make another Saddle Hunter's Hitch below your top attachment. Use toggle biner #2 to close the hitch. You will have a descending line and a line heading back up to your bridge attachment point.

Attach your Garda foot loop to the lower descending line. This really could be any foot loop and attachment method. Again, just sticking to some JRB stuff and I like how easy it is to make adjustments using the Garda.

Use 2TC maneuvers to make your climb (stand in Garda and wrap leg around tree while advancing top SHH). Sit in saddle and advance the lower SHH. Use toggles to help advance the SHH's. At height remove the lower SHH, attach belay method and rappel down when finished. There will be some necessary adjustments to top hitch to convert to a remote releasable version (I haven't worked through this very well in my mind yet). Unless you stick with normal girth hitch/quick link attachment for top tether, in which case, let her rip!

Remember, this is just an idea to discuss. Never been tried, and I'm just some dude on the internet.

Perceived benefits/tradeoffs:
One 40 ft climbing rope only instead of two 8 ft ropes.

No quick link needed (depending on top tether attachment method).

Ease, fun, and safety of rappel descent (which to be fair some veteran 2TC'ers say is not desired...but in my mind seems like a huge improvement).

No throw ball or throw line cube (compared to SRT, JRB, or MRS).

Very clever and well described. As you can imagine, i have tried a lot of combinations before and after publishing the JRB methods. I believe it would work, but for myself, i don't believe it meets my personal requirements. The ones that it doesn't meet are:
1. Ability to bypass horizontal branches with no sacrifice in safety or additional components
2. This and 2TC and one sticking involve MOVING or ADVANCING a hitch while it has the responsibility to hold u. That's a precarious operation and can't be done without slack. I haven't found any way to do this move and uphold my requirement to always have a cinching no slack or low slack connection on my tether 100% of the time.

Be aware that the garda can be advanced very easily but not slid backwards. And so it might not be the best for this. I am currently experimenting with JRB Hitch Climbing methods with NO garda... i use JRB Ascender hitches in soft bridge mode instead. I will try to publish a status update video.

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[TNSTAAFL]

@John RB already demonstrates this in his JRB hitch climbing video. Is this not similar to what you’re describing?

Thanks for linking that video. I've watched that one. The approach is different however, as my idea requires no board to stand on, doesn't involve detaching and reattaching the top tether each move, nor use a redundant bridge. My idea definitely isn't as safe or well thought out as JRB Hitch Climbing.

My idea follows the 2TC methodology more closely which involves standing in a foot loop to unweight your tether so it can be advanced while still attached to the tree. The slack this creates is probably unacceptable to JRB (and others) but is normal for 2TC'ers and much less then 1-stick/platform-climber & rappelers. You're never climbing above your top tether.

In the end I'm really just trying to adjust 2TC to use a single rope that can be rappelled off of. It seems to me that if you are going to carry 16 feet of rope why not carry 35ish and save all those tether moves down the tree? What does 19-24 feet of 8mm rope weigh or take up for space, and is that small of a weight/bulk penalty not worth the speed/ease/safety/fun of the rappel descent?

I suppose by that same logic, if you are willing to carry 35-40 of rappel rope, what's 8 more for a dedicated foot loop tether?

Just really a thought experiment in the end. Like I first mentioned way up top, posting, listening to feedback and reposting helps me work though ideas. Thanks for helping me with that.

 

[Samcirrus]

Very clever and well described. As you can imagine, i have tried a lot of combinations before and after publishing the JRB methods. I believe it would work, but for myself, i don't believe it meets my personal requirements. The ones that it doesn't meet are:
1. Ability to bypass horizontal branches with no sacrifice in safety or additional components
2. This and 2TC and one sticking involve MOVING or ADVANCING a hitch while it has the responsibility to hold u. That's a precarious operation and can't be done without slack. I haven't found any way to do this move and uphold my requirement to always have a cinching no slack or low slack connection on my tether 100% of the time.

Be aware that the garda can be advanced very easily but not slid backwards. And so it might not be the best for this. I am currently experimenting with JRB Hitch Climbing methods with NO garda... i use JRB Ascender hitches in soft bridge mode instead. I will try to publish a status update video.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

I have a solution for point #2 in my 2TC climb and it's a adjustable length hitch of sorts on my foot tether so I can always pass the whistle test without clipping in to something before going around a branch. It warm and 34 degrees today so I'll try to film what I mean!

 

[TNSTAAFL]

Very clever and well described. As you can imagine, i have tried a lot of combinations before and after publishing the JRB methods. I believe it would work, but for myself, i don't believe it meets my personal requirements. The ones that it doesn't meet are:
1. Ability to bypass horizontal branches with no sacrifice in safety or additional components
2. This and 2TC and one sticking involve MOVING or ADVANCING a hitch while it has the responsibility to hold u. That's a precarious operation and can't be done without slack. I haven't found any way to do this move and uphold my requirement to always have a cinching no slack or low slack connection on my tether 100% of the time.

Be aware that the garda can be advanced very easily but not slid backwards. And so it might not be the best for this. I am currently experimenting with JRB Hitch Climbing methods with NO garda... i use JRB Ascender hitches in soft bridge mode instead. I will try to publish a status update video.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

Thank you so much for weighing in on this John. I've learned so much from your YouTube channel and website. I am so thoroughly impressed with your careful explanation of the concepts you are using and the materials you use them with, as well as your regard for the safety of those consuming your content.

I agree completely with your two areas of concern. On the first, since my hunting area provides access to many limbless trees, I already avoid situations where I'd have to pass a branch. On the second, I totally understand the safety concern of slack in the system. That is a risk tradeoff choice individuals have to make. I totally respect your stance on that choice for both your own climbing and your advocacy to others. It is a commendable position to take. I apologize if my inclusion of some of your techniques, especially those involving your initials, with other less safe approaches causes you any distress.

 

[Samcirrus]

Thanks for linking that video. I've watched that one. The approach is different however, as my idea requires no board to stand on, doesn't involve detaching and reattaching the top tether each move, nor use a redundant bridge. My idea definitely isn't as safe or well thought out as JRB Hitch Climbing.

My idea follows the 2TC methodology more closely which involves standing in a foot loop to unweight your tether so it can be advanced while still attached to the tree. The slack this creates is probably unacceptable to JRB (and others) but is normal for 2TC'ers and much less then 1-stick/platform-climber & rappelers. You're never climbing above your top tether.

In the end I'm really just trying to adjust 2TC to use a single rope that can be rappelled off of. It seems to me that if you are going to carry 16 feet of rope why not carry 35ish and save all those tether moves down the tree? What does 19-24 feet of 8mm rope weigh or take up for space, and is that small of a weight/bulk penalty not worth the speed/ease/safety/fun of the rappel descent?

I suppose by that same logic, if you are willing to carry 35-40 of rappel rope, what's 8 more for a dedicated foot loop tether?

Just really a thought experiment in the end. Like I first mentioned way up top, posting, listening to feedback and reposting helps me work though ideas. Thanks for helping me with that.

I'm gonna test this out today. But to be honest, a second tether isnt a bad thing to have on you at all times for self resuce from who knows what type of situation. I would never want to be completely reliant on one rope unless I'm JRB climbing, but even then a second tether/LB is still not an inconvenience.

 

[Red Beard]

It seems to me that if you are going to carry 16 feet of rope why not carry 35ish and save all those tether moves down the tree?

I suppose by that same logic, if you are willing to carry 35-40 of rappel rope, what's 8 more for a dedicated foot loop tether?

Think you just hit your own nail on the head!

 

[Samcirrus]

So I tried doing a 2TC climb with my single rappel rope, and a saddlehunter's hitch for the second foot tether. However, moving a doubled rope, as the saddlehunter's hitch is, is so much more bothersome than having a single strand separate tether. You have to coax 2 strands up the tree at the same time which you have no handles for and often the lower strand of rope catches on the tree.
I think stationary hitch climbing like JRB's idea works because he's not trying to slide the hitches up the tree, he ties a new one then releases the old one.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

@John RB already demonstrates this in his JRB hitch climbing video. Is this not similar to what you’re describing?

Watching this hitch climbing video again it is definitely a safer/better idea than what I have proposed here. The two things I would like to see changed (if possible):

1) use a 40 ft max rope (use separate pull down line). I only want to carry enough rope to rappel on a single line. The climbing part of this method doesn't seem to require more than that.

2) ditch the foot board (again, if possible). I see how it helps with stability, but I just don't want the weight and bulk. Maybe if it was smaller.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

So I tried doing a 2TC climb with my single rappel rope, and a saddlehunter's hitch for the second foot tether. However, moving a doubled rope, as the saddlehunter's hitch is, is so much more bothersome than having a single strand separate tether. You have to coax 2 strands up the tree at the same time which you have no handles for and often the lower strand of rope catches on the tree.
I think stationary hitch climbing like JRB's idea works because he's not trying to slide the hitches up the tree, he ties a new one then releases the old one.

Thanks for trying this and reporting back. Your observations make sense. Can I ask if you used a toggle on your SSH's and used said toggle to maneuver the hitches up? Seems like JRB wiggles his up pretty easily in his video, but maybe this is harder than it looks.

 

[TNSTAAFL]

I think stationary hitch climbing like JRB's idea works because he's not trying to slide the hitches up the tree, he ties a new one then releases the old one.

This is a great point. I see that as a clear advantage of his approach. Doubly so as I don't like advancing a girth hitch in the first place!

 

[Samcirrus]

This is a great point. I see that as a clear advantage of his approach. Doubly so as I don't like advancing a girth hitch in the first place!

When I 2TC I dont use a girth hitch for either of my 2 tethers, I do a different wrap around that keeps the tether on the tree when all weight is taken off. After my daughter goes to bed I'll take a picture.