8mm Oplux questions & uses

[sojourner]

There's some subtlety regarding what climbers expect from prusik cord, vs what arborists expect from what I can tell - with us in the middle.

I am finding that out also. IMO, that Is a spot on observation!

I’ve done some more research today. From what I can tell from my very short research. ... Climbers here seem to not think about friction hitch usage for life support. Also, there seems to be more tieing in to harness without usage of biners. And usage of dynamic cordage. Arborists seem to be more aligned with what we do, but don’t take into account lower weight / lower bulk. And their safety ratings are probably tied to regulation. So overkill on safety requirements.

I also used fall force calculators and I see that, with my body weight and gear (300 lbs), a 20’ fall would generate 8.13 kN. And the jammy @22kN, reduced by 40% due to knots (which I believe is a rather high number estimate), would be 13.2kN breaking strength.

According to my calculations, If I was able to get to a height of 20’ 1” and had 20’ slack, and fell (oplux/jammy/biner/RC Harness), my body would not hit the deck (my gear would not fail). That said, my body would most likely be broken beyond repair from the sudden stop with the static system.

Where I stand now, I am going forward with the oplux/jammy/distel. I will add another twist to the poachers knots that attach the jammy to the biner (over abundance of caution about possible slippage of cordage).

As usual for me, I always back up my LB and tether with an alpine butterfly attached to the biner behind the distel. May be overkill, but it gives me peace of mind.

Also, the most important take away for me is that I should always minimize slack in my system at all times. I think my body will give out way before the gear does.

 

[Labonte.r]

Is the reason for the reduced rating on the jammy because of the knots you guys are tying to different friction hitches. What have we found it’s rating as regular prusik? I just ordered two 35 and tenders to run on my Oplux lb and tether and I’m getting worried now.

 

[sojourner]

Is the reason for the reduced rating on the jammy because of the knots you guys are tying to different friction hitches. What have we found it’s rating as regular prusik? I just ordered two 35 and tenders to run on my Oplux lb and tether and I’m getting worried now.

All knots reduce strength in ALL ropes. It is not specific to jammy. Some knots reduce strength more, some less.

AFAIK, there is no such thing as “regular prusik”.

Think of it this way, there are many strands going through the rope. When the rope is tied in a knot, the curvature of the rope through the knot causes some strands to be “slack” and not help provide strength.

What is open for debate is if the stitched connection of the jammy is stronger than double fisherman. That is a moot point when using a distel or schwabisch, as those do not use a loop. But not moot when using as a prusik.

IMO, using jammy as is and using prusik is best option wrt minimizing risk. It is just that prusik tends to lock up and does not do well with tenders.

 

[Labonte.r]

All knots reduce strength in ALL ropes. It is not specific to jammy. Some knots reduce strength more, some less.

AFAIK, there is no such thing as “regular prusik”.

Think of it this way, there are many strands going through the rope. When the rope is tied in a knot, the curvature of the rope through the knot causes some strands to be “slack” and not help provide strength.

What is open for debate is if the stitched connection of the jammy is stronger than double fisherman. That is a moot point when using a distel or schwabisch, as those do not use a loop. But not moot when using as a prusik.

IMO, using jammy as is and using prusik is best option wrt minimizing risk. It is just that prusik tends to lock up and does not do well with tenders.

All these different friction hitches are new to me I’ve always used the prusik and when time allows I’ll play with different options but too late in the game right now. I just wanted to make sure the Oplux jammy combination was going to be safe as I just bought lb, tether, and tenders.

 

[sojourner]

All these different friction hitches are new to me I’ve always used the prusik and when time allows I’ll play with different options but too late in the game right now. I just wanted to make sure the Oplux jammy combination was going to be safe as I just bought lb, tether, and tenders.

Only you can make that decision. At this point, I am going to use the oplux, jammy and tender. I still have my blue water 11mm, armor-prus and tender as backup.

 

[Jbiehn]

I am finding that out also. IMO, that Is a spot on observation!

I’ve done some more research today. From what I can tell from my very short research. ... Climbers here seem to not think about friction hitch usage for life support. Also, there seems to be more tieing in to harness without usage of biners. And usage of dynamic cordage. Arborists seem to be more aligned with what we do, but don’t take into account lower weight / lower bulk. And their safety ratings are probably tied to regulation. So overkill on safety requirements.

I also used fall force calculators and I see that, with my body weight and gear (300 lbs), a 20’ fall would generate 8.13 kN. And the jammy @22kN, reduced by 40% due to knots (which I believe is a rather high number estimate), would be 13.2kN breaking strength.

According to my calculations, If I was able to get to a height of 20’ 1” and had 20’ slack, and fell (oplux/jammy/biner/RC Harness), my body would not hit the deck (my gear would not fail). That said, my body would most likely be broken beyond repair from the sudden stop with the static system.

Where I stand now, I am going forward with the oplux/jammy/distel. I will add another twist to the poachers knots that attach the jammy to the biner (over abundance of caution about possible slippage of cordage).

As usual for me, I always back up my LB and tether with an alpine butterfly attached to the biner behind the distel. May be overkill, but it gives me peace of mind.

Also, the most important take away for me is that I should always minimize slack in my system at all times. I think my body will give out way before the gear does.

I appreciate the time and research you’ve spent looking to to this. These are good discussions to have and it’s important to understand the safety variables in our options.

I’ve been a very focused rock climbing for 30 years and the thought of fall generating 12 kN is terrifying. The two uses are very different but one situation that I feel is similar is at a hanging belay, where your anchored to your loop by a locking carabiner. Most climbers will tie a figure 8 on a bight or do a clove hitch and back it up with an overhand. I don’t think any climbers would consider hanging from a single mechanical or conventional friction hitch safe.

This is mostly because if it falls your SOL and they may need to support their weight and catch a dynamic fall of a lead climber above. As example, if the lead climber is 5’ above the belay and has no protection between they will put a 10’ fall on 5’ of rope. This type of fall has a large fall factor because there isn’t much dynamic rope to absorb the fall. Thus it’s comparable to the short falls we may be subject to.

Long story short. Backups are always safer but the old rule remains the most important “the climber never falls”.

 

[Aeds151]

Jesus. I am now thinking about waiting on saddle hunting until something is set in stone for how and what to use that is safe for how we use it as a “tether”.


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[Jbiehn]

Jesus. I am now thinking about waiting on saddle hunting until something is set in stone for how and what to use that is safe for how we use it as a “tether”.


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Keep slack out of your tether and back it up. I think it’s definitely safer than a traditional harness and tree stand. If you’re ever at risk of taking a fall greater than 1’ with your saddle you’ve done something terribly wrong and should have spent more time learning the craft on the ground.

 

[Aeds151]

Keep slack out of your tether and back it up. I think it’s definitely safer than a traditional harness and tree stand. If you’re ever at risk of taking a fall greater than 1’ with your saddle you’ve done something terribly wrong and should have spent more time learning the craft on the ground.

So therefore, LWHC and One Sticking is out. Which I just spent a lot of money on the equipment and the mods. Might have to go back to carrying three un modded heliums when I can figure out what ropes and hitch cord to us.


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[mattsteg]

HTP is very stiff, great LB. The Oplux is much much more supple.

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Thanks - I have the htp - the stiffness is a mixed bag. It makes the rope pack-up a tad worse than predator, for example, and take up a similar amount of space. I kinda like that suppleness. I don't really quite get the stiff-lineman love to be honest. It sounds like oplux may be more to my taste.

 

[mattsteg]

So therefore, LWHC and One Sticking is out. Which I just spent a lot of money on the equipment and the mods. Might have to go back to carrying three un modded heliums when I can figure out what ropes and hitch cord to us.


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Consider looking into the setup @kyler1945 put together.

Also - I suggest applying the same analysis to whatever you are doing now or have done in the past. there's a tendency to apply higher standards to things we are looking into, vs things we are already doing. You aren't really going to get an official stamp of approval unless you move up to industrial work positioning equipment. Or go back to unmodified things in the hunting industry which are in many cases certified to a lesser standard.

 

[iamcorey]

So therefore, LWHC and One Sticking is out. Which I just spent a lot of money on the equipment and the mods. Might have to go back to carrying three un modded heliums when I can figure out what ropes and hitch cord to us.


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How much slack do you typically have in your 1 stick/LWHC ascents?


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[Tater]

Thanks - I have the htp - the stiffness is a mixed bag. It makes the rope pack-up a tad worse than predator, for example, and take up a similar amount of space. I kinda like that suppleness. I don't really quite get the stiff-lineman love to be honest. It sounds like oplux may be more to my taste.

I like the slightly stiffer rope on LB just bc its a tad easier to work up and down the tree. Kind of hard to explain unless you try both. Personal preference i guess.

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[Aeds151]

How much slack do you typically have in your 1 stick/LWHC ascents?


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I have never measured it but I imagine its at least 1 foot? I will try and find kylers system. Im not too impressed with the search function but I will give it a try.


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[mattsteg]

I like the slightly stiffer rope on LB just bc its a tad easier to work up and down the tree. Kind of hard to explain unless you try both. Personal preference i guess.

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I get that - I just don't see that big of a benefit for most cases. I'm not e.g. leaning back in spurs and flipping the belt up in most cases. Most of the time I'm climbing trees with forks, branches, stubs, etc. where more often than not you need to manually position the belt or manipulate it around branch stubs anyway. I also tend to view this as stealthier. I admit that I've used a supple rope much longer than a stiff one - but other than flipping up a monster tree that I can't bearhug (which sucks anyway) I don't see an immediate benefit other than making simple climbs slightly more efficient.

I sorta feel like a more supple rope might be likelier to grip when needed also.

 

[weekender21]

So therefore, LWHC and One Sticking is out. Which I just spent a lot of money on the equipment and the mods. Might have to go back to carrying three un modded heliums when I can figure out what ropes and hitch cord to us.


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One sticking and hand climbers are ascent methods on one end of a spectrum. I’ve used the one stick method with a RM1 in the past but don’t do it now. I do however have 100% confidence in a tether and Prusik. Been trusting that system to protect me in a fall for years with stand hunting.

Thousands of hunters sit in tree stands tethered to a tree with the assumption that their stock tether and Prusik will hold if they fall and.....I bet they’re absolutely correct.

With a tree stand harness, there is already slack in your system. If you come off your stand, you will fall guaranteed. In a saddle, the fall has already happened. It’s rare that you’d ever be in a situation to really test any single point of your system. One sticking might be one of those situations but, I’d much rather fall connected to my tether than my LB while climbing with sticks or bolts.




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[Aeds151]

One sticking and hand climbers are ascent methods on one end of a spectrum. I’ve used the one stick method with a RM1 in the past but don’t do it now. I do however have 100% confidence in a tether and Prusik. Been trusting that system to protect me in a fall for years with stand hunting.

Thousands of hunters sit in tree stands tethered to a tree with the assumption that their stock tether and Prusik will hold if they fall and.....I bet they’re absolutely correct.

With a tree stand harness, there is already slack in your system. If you come off your stand, you will fall guaranteed. In a saddle, the fall has already happened. It’s rare that you’d ever be in a situation to really test any single point of your system. One sticking might be one of those situations but, I’d much rather fall connected to my tether than my LB while climbing with sticks or bolts.




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Hey thanks. Ya I want to get away from a linemans belt as well. Too dangerous for me.


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[mattsteg]

Hey thanks. Ya I want to get away from a linemans belt as well. Too dangerous for me.


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You can do that in an instant. Just tether all the way up regardless of method.

 

[sojourner]

I appreciate the time and research you’ve spent looking to to this. These are good discussions to have and it’s important to understand the safety variables in our options.

I’ve been a very focused rock climbing for 30 years and the thought of fall generating 12 kN is terrifying. The two uses are very different but one situation that I feel is similar is at a hanging belay, where your anchored to your loop by a locking carabiner. Most climbers will tie a figure 8 on a bight or do a clove hitch and back it up with an overhand. I don’t think any climbers would consider hanging from a single mechanical or conventional friction hitch safe.

This is mostly because if it falls your SOL and they may need to support their weight and catch a dynamic fall of a lead climber above. As example, if the lead climber is 5’ above the belay and has no protection between they will put a 10’ fall on 5’ of rope. This type of fall has a large fall factor because there isn’t much dynamic rope to absorb the fall. Thus it’s comparable to the short falls we may be subject to.

Long story short. Backups are always safer but the old rule remains the most important “the climber never falls”.

Glad to hear info. from someone more knowledgeable. Knowledge is best when shared. Thanks!

I do my best to minimize slack in my system. But I like to have safety margins with the gear I use. And 12kN fall, not sure I would even survive that.

A tangential question for you. Which is safer / stronger when using a RCH for backup of a saddle: connecting to the belay loop or through the waist and leg loop?

Again, thanks.

 

[Jbiehn]

Glad to hear info. from someone more knowledgeable. Knowledge is best when shared. Thanks!

I do my best to minimize slack in my system. But I like to have safety margins with the gear I use. And 12kN fall, not sure I would even survive that.

A tangential question for you. Which is safer / stronger when using a RCH for backup of a saddle: connecting to the belay loop or through the waist and leg loop?

Again, thanks.

The belay loop is full strength and so is tying in direct. For Climbers using the belay loop is the safer option while belaying because of the carabiner alignment. I think for saddle use either would be good but if one allows for cleaner alignment I’d use that.