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Advice to get from Average Hunter to “Bigger Buck” / Mature buck Hunter

So explain to me how only the young dumb bucks in your area survive. Who's killing all of the mature bucks? Surely you haven't got big bucks laying all along the highway.
They don’t. There’s just more of them. Lot of difference between surviving one year and surviving 5 years. Either that or the “mature deer” in Louisiana are a hell of a lot better at hiding than those in Iowa, or Kansas, or Ohio, or Illinois or…..well, you get the idea.
 
They don’t. There’s just more of them. Lot of difference between surviving one year and surviving 5 years. Either that or the “mature deer” in Louisiana are a hell of a lot better at hiding than those in Iowa, or Kansas, or Ohio, or Illinois or…..well, you get the idea.
An interesting note:
Per https://www.deerassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Final-DR2021.pdf
Louisiana leads the nation in proportion of bucks killed that are 3.5 and older and kills more bucks per hunter than any of the midwest states. (Of course a lot of the states you list don't report age class, and there's a big difference from 3.5 to 5.5.)

We're potentially underestimating the extent that you just have small deer (and a lot of nasty hiding spots). There's also likely more of a split between "trophy" hunters and the orange armies that hit the woods for short firearms seasons typical of the midwest vs the extended seasons of the South that complicate comparisons.
 
An interesting note:
Per https://www.deerassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Final-DR2021.pdf
Louisiana leads the nation in proportion of bucks killed that are 3.5 and older and kills more bucks per hunter than any of the midwest states. (Of course a lot of the states you list don't report age class, and there's a big difference from 3.5 to 5.5.)

We're potentially underestimating the extent that you just have small deer (and a lot of nasty hiding spots). There's also likely more of a split between "trophy" hunters and the orange armies that hit the woods for short firearms seasons typical of the midwest vs the extended seasons of the South that complicate comparisons.
I agree with everything you said, with the exception of things complicating the comparison. Large body deer produce large antlers and sooner than small body deer. More large body deer deer equates to larger crops of potential trophy class animals. @Nutterbuster put out a nice little spreadsheet showing how many P&Y deer have been recorded in each state. In Wisconsin you have to sift a little over 5 square mile to find a P&Y class deer. In Louisiana you have to sift 329 square miles to find the same class deer. I don’t care how hard someone tries to explain away the difference, the fundamental truth remains The odds of killing a trophy in states that have 1 P&Y every 5 sq miles vice states with 1 P&Y per 329 sq miles are simply much greater for both novice and master hunter alike. @Nutterbuster was spot on. Your odds of killing what isn’t there (relatively speaking) even if you pass up every small buck, put in the time, do every correctly, will be much lower than someone hunting where there are more trophy animals. People can try to argue that fact all they want, but the numbers don’t lie.

So, if you live in one of those 329 sq mile states maybe you should go a little easier on yourself when you don’t knock down a Midwest style “trophy” every year….and maybe everyone else should go a little easier on you as well. Not saying you shouldn’t strive to kill the biggest deer in your neck of the woods or that people shouldn’t encourage you to develop the skill to do it, but you need to understand that if a basket rack 8 point is the biggest thing there, you aren’t doing yourself any favors by continue to pass him up waiting for him to grow into the Iowa giant that will never walk by your stand in your whole lifetime. Today’s social media has created a lot of unrealistic expectations for new or inexperienced hunters. Sadly, I’ll bet that some hunters that actually kill the biggest thing in their woods won’t post it because they don’t want to be viewed as having shot something “less”. IMO that’s bad for the sport.
Hunters per P&Y deer.png
 
An interesting note:
Per https://www.deerassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Final-DR2021.pdf
Louisiana leads the nation in proportion of bucks killed that are 3.5 and older and kills more bucks per hunter than any of the midwest states. (Of course a lot of the states you list don't report age class, and there's a big difference from 3.5 to 5.5.)

We're potentially underestimating the extent that you just have small deer (and a lot of nasty hiding spots). There's also likely more of a split between "trophy" hunters and the orange armies that hit the woods for short firearms seasons typical of the midwest vs the extended seasons of the South that complicate comparisons.
You have to take that data with a grain of salt though. Louisiana doesn't track the age of bucks. That LA number comes from DMAP clubs which are managed lands that are primarily targeting 3.5 YO bucks.
 
I agree with everything you said, with the exception of things complicating the comparison. Large body deer produce large antlers and sooner than small body deer. More large body deer deer equates to larger crops of potential trophy class animals. @Nutterbuster put out a nice little spreadsheet showing how many P&Y deer have been recorded in each state. In Wisconsin you have to sift a little over 5 square mile to find a P&Y class deer. In Louisiana you have to sift 329 square miles to find the same class deer. I don’t care how hard someone tries to explain away the difference, the fundamental truth remains The odds of killing a trophy in states that have 1 P&Y every 5 sq miles vice states with 1 P&Y per 329 sq miles are simply much greater for both novice and master hunter alike. @Nutterbuster was spot on. Your odds of killing what isn’t there (relatively speaking) even if you pass up every small buck, put in the time, do every correctly, will be much lower than someone hunting where there are more trophy animals. People can try to argue that fact all they want, but the numbers don’t lie.
You said "mature" - not "trophy". If your definition of "mature" is..well.."mature" - you're pretty clearly shooting more of these down south than we are up north. If you really mean "deer with big antlers" and "deer with big bodies" (which overlap some but not perfectly...plenty of places up north deer prioritize body mass to survive but don't necessarily have the surplus nutrition to consistently develop big racks).

The median southern buck killed is 3.5 yo. ~70% of the bucks killed in the midwest are 2.5 or younger, and about 30% are sporting their first rack. Y'all are killing older deer. Doubtless a lot of that is that many of our younger deer sport reasonable racks. And a bunch more of it is that our firearms seasons average 14 days while southern seasons average 81 days (and those seasons account for 2/3 f kills on average - over 80% in MN). Give casual hinters a 2 week window to blast away and you're getting a lot of brown is down - I'd imagine that the age-structure of e.g. bowhunted bucks where we have similar or longer seasons to down south is different. A bow is more frequently the best legal weapon up north than down south, and the firearms hunter pressure is definitely different in form.

I agree to set your standards based on the population that you are hunting - if the standard is "mature" y'all seem to be doing pretty well at that regionally. If the standard is "big racks"...you're clearly operating at a disadvantage.
 
You have to take that data with a grain of salt though. Louisiana doesn't track the age of bucks. That LA number comes from DMAP clubs which are managed lands that are primarily targeting 3.5 YO bucks.
I just posted that same thing in another thread. :)

But hey, folks are talking numbers!! 2 people quoted some of the resources I've posted up and used them to draw conclusions based on something a little more objective than personal experience or anecdotal evidence It's a start!

I do agree it can get more complicated than what immediately seems obvious. I also agree that, in general, you're smokin' crack taking what you know about big bucks in the midwest and applying it to the rest of the country. I'll also say that I think the southeast is generally not a terrible place to hunt and could maybe rival the midwest with proper management. I don't think we can ever hit the antler size but we definitely have the habitat to support populations, and we could get the size up if enough people insisted on DCNR doing that. Mississippi in particular has really done excellent things over the past couple decades it seems.
 
Here's a good way to get to better deer. Drive and look. If you can drive around and see a deer with any regularity from your vehicle, you are in an area that isn't that pressured when talking about pressured deer. Find a place to hunt around there. If you have deer that are dumb enough to be out in daylight in a field or roadside, you're not hunting pressured deer. Now, in those areas where you can actually see deer with any regularity, get permission, lease, or buy a place. If the public area is close, get close to where you can see deer from your car. Those areas aren't getting pressured enough NOT to have mature deer.
 
Here's a good way to get to better deer. Drive and look. If you can drive around and see a deer with any regularity from your vehicle, you are in an area that isn't that pressured when talking about pressured deer. Find a place to hunt around there. If you have deer that are dumb enough to be out in daylight in a field or roadside, you're not hunting pressured deer. Now, in those areas where you can actually see deer with any regularity, get permission, lease, or buy a place. If the public area is close, get close to where you can see deer from your car. Those areas aren't getting pressured enough NOT to have mature deer.
Agreed. Once I started driving to counties that looked good on a spreadsheet, I was shocked to see deer on the sides of the road in broad daylight. In my county you'll see a deer or two in peak rut and late summer (after they've eaten most of the browse and before the oaks are dropping) during daylight, but it's super rare. Some areas reminded me more of a petting zoo than open-permit public hunting land.
 
Agreed. Once I started driving to counties that looked good on a spreadsheet, I was shocked to see deer on the sides of the road in broad daylight. In my county you'll see a deer or two in peak rut and late summer (after they've eaten most of the browse and before the oaks are dropping) during daylight, but it's super rare. Some areas reminded me more of a petting zoo than open-permit public hunting land.
Exactly why I went to a different state. I went from the deep south where seeing any deer from the car, was a stomp the brakes, hey did y'all see that moment to states where seeing deer in daylight from a car was not a big deal. Yeah, I could buy my way into a good hunting area in my home state or go to one of the better public areas adjoining good habitat and kill a good buck every few years, but I'd rather travel to good hunting. It's a shame, because the south could have big bucks with regularity produced. The states game management departments don't manage for that. Instead they manage for maximum sustained yield. And, I don't think they do a really good job at that in most cases.
 
Instead they manage for maximum sustained yield. And, I don't think they do a really good job at that in most cases.
Alabama definitely manages for maximum amount of deer seen in the back of a food plot. And they do it because the old guys who are calling shots grew up when the deer population was at an all-time low. Used to not even be a doe season in Alabama. They fought passing it, and they fought extending it. The state FINALLY got the deer population to start dropping the way they said it would need to for a healthier herd with a more balanced buck/doe ratio, and as soon as Cooter and Earnest T. stopped seeing 17 does every evening in the back 40 and raised Cain the state started scaling it back.

We also legalized baiting the same year CWD got reported in neighboring counties in Mississippi. 100% fatal and highly contagious disease making its way into our area? Hmmm. Lets grow the population and encourage them to swap spit.
 
Alabama definitely manages for maximum amount of deer seen in the back of a food plot. And they do it because the old guys who are calling shots grew up when the deer population was at an all-time low. Used to not even be a doe season in Alabama. They fought passing it, and they fought extending it. The state FINALLY got the deer population to start dropping the way they said it would need to for a healthier herd with a more balanced buck/doe ratio, and as soon as Cooter and Earnest T. stopped seeing 17 does every evening in the back 40 and raised Cain the state started scaling it back.

We also legalized baiting the same year CWD got reported in neighboring counties in Mississippi. 100% fatal and highly contagious disease making its way into our area? Hmmm. Lets grow the population and encourage them to swap spit.
Must be a different Cooter than this Cooter. I isn't seen 17 does in a week hunting where I hunt. But I'm not proficient with the bucket technique yet either. LOL
 
I agree to set your standards based on the population that you are hunting - if the standard is "mature" y'all seem to be doing pretty well at that regionally. If the standard is "big racks"...you're clearly operating at a disadvantage.
Agreed. On social media, forums etc., most folks don’t judge a hunter by ”mature” kills, they judge them by rack size. I’ve been hunting long enough and have enough experience to understand that I only have to satisfy my own standards, not everyone else’s. But I think we have all seen those folks on Social Media, forums etc., berating others for what they shoot…and they don’t even live in the same state as the person they are belittling lol. Good discussion….
 
Agreed. On social media, forums etc., most folks don’t judge a hunter by ”mature” kills, they judge them by rack size. I’ve been hunting long enough and have enough experience to understand that I only have to satisfy my own standards, not everyone else’s. But I think we have all seen those folks on Social Media, forums etc., berating others for what they shoot…and they don’t even live in the same state as the person they are belittling lol. Good discussion….
It goes both ways. I'm guilty of pooing on midwestern hunters pretty hard. Jawbones and cementum aging appear to be the real yardstick
 
Exactly why I went to a different state. I went from the deep south where seeing any deer from the car, was a stomp the brakes, hey did y'all see that moment to states where seeing deer in daylight from a car was not a big deal. Yeah, I could buy my way into a good hunting area in my home state or go to one of the better public areas adjoining good habitat and kill a good buck every few years, but I'd rather travel to good hunting. It's a shame, because the south could have big bucks with regularity produced. The states game management departments don't manage for that. Instead they manage for maximum sustained yield. And, I don't think they do a really good job at that in most cases.
Lol…right. Where I grew up in Louisiana it was easy to know that a deer was standing out in the open in the middle of the day, just listen for the gunfire! You didn’t hear it very often. I drove up to Chicago from Virginia recently and it was amazing to see so many deer out in fields several hours after sunrise and several before sunset. That just doesn’t happen in Louisiana even today.
 
It goes both ways. I'm guilty of pooing on midwestern hunters pretty hard. Jawbones and cementum aging appear to be the real yardstick
Again, hard scientific data rules. Unfortunately you can’t check that jawbone until they are dead. IMO the reality is that there are not that many hunters that can regularly and accurately gage a deers age in the time that a moving deer enters bow range and when a lethal shot opportunity ends. Not that they won’t try, but anecdotally their primary gage seems to be antler size. Obviously if he is standing in a field, at a feeder or you have had a chance to study the animal on trail cam pics the odds would go up, but even then, I think a lot would still get it wrong. This becomes somewhat evident when someone posts a pic of deer and then asks what everyone thinks it age is. Not their fault, most just don’t have enough experience to do it with regular accuracy. I mean, how many hunters actually get to routinely see 4 & 5 yo deer?
 
The single biggest thing a person can do imo is to change the mindset from hunting deer to hunting mature buck, they are different animals with completely different habits and patterns. There are many guys that consistently get it done using different approaches so in regards to technique I'd say that being able to apply what ever technique is necessary to the circumstances is key.

This is very good advice however, you need to know what methods to change to and they differ according to where you hunt, the amount and type of hunting pressure, daily and seasonal timing for every location, comfort in tree height, properly scouting for mature buck daytime signposts, being able to identify adequate security over for daytime movements, scent control regimen, entry and exit routes and the list goes on and on. If you want a bunch of articles that address hunting for mature bucks, send me a request and I'll send them to you. Send hunting articles request to deerjohn51@gmail.com and if you want scent control specific info, request that as well.
 
I’m no Infalt or Eberhart, but I’ve been on a heater the last few years thanks to the good Lord’s blessing and a few simple changes. A few tips that have made a big difference for me:
1. Trail cams. They’re a true “force multiplier” in that they provide you tons of intel relative to the time it takes to use them. If you can’t scout a ton, deploy a bunch of trail cams (none of mine are cell cams, btw), and really look for patterns, not just pics of big racks to show your buddies. For example, I learned this summer that my target bucks were using one bedding area at night and another during the daytime, and I was able to nearly intercept one on a travel route between the two during TN’s early velvet hunt. I wouldn’t have known about the deer or their travel without having multiple cameras out in the summer.
2. Pay attention! It’s amazing how much we all miss in the woods (or when reviewing trail cam pics) if we’re not focused and paying attention. For example, with trail cams, notice which way they’re going, what time of day, temperature, etc., not just whether there’s a good’rn on the property. In the woods, pay attention to things like which oak trees have the most deer poop and tracks under them, not just which oak trees are dropping acorns. It’s hard to see the picture of the puzzle if you have fewer puzzle pieces—pay attention to give yourself as many pieces of that puzzle as possible!
3. Find places deer feel safe. Big bucks are going to hog those places, and they’re your surest bet for killing one. Whether it’s 3 miles back on public or that little 2-acre corner of your property that’s always been overlooked, big bucks will pattern property users and stay away from them. I was shocked last year when I found the best buck sign on my whole family farm just 20 yards from our backyard and right next to the neighboring neighborhood. Why was that mature buck there? Because we overlooked it and never went there, assuming deer wouldn’t feel safe! Find those pockets of human-free zones, and I guarantee if the habitat is otherwise deer-friendly, you’ll find mature bucks.
None of these tips require tons more time afield—just a different mindset and focus (and $$ for as many trail cams as you can afford). Hope this helps!

all good post, but if had to pick what can contribute the most to a huntersuccess on particular deer, I would also agree with proper use of cameras.

It’s much like the use of electronics in fishing, where pro anglers, would not be without them. In typical areas, mature deer are somewhat scarce, if you run cameras in time, you begin to eliminate the areas where bigger deer tend to avoid and collect spots, that are where you’ll Want to spend time.

the conjunction of scouting for big sign, and cameras is also great, because it helps confirm your assumptions on the sign that you’re reading.

everyone knows what fresh big rubs and scrapes look like, but big deer do not put that sign down all that often, so keep an eye out for them, but also Look for Old scars on big trees, that have been hit or rubbed in the past, old broken saplings, big poop. Big tracks..to build a pattern over time, where few people go.

another thing, not mentioned often, but feel is very important, is being a physically capable person, and not setting limits on yourself. Often, it’s not enough on public to hunt way back, as everyone knows that. Sometimes you have to do stuff that’s insane to a normal person. Like hike a 1.5-2 miles, then climb through thick laurel to get to an area on the other side.

At the end of the day, it all takes a great amount of trial and error and work, to consistently get older bucks into range, as they’re typically very nocturnal, live in harder access areas, and don’t accept a lot of intrusions
 
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This is very good advice however, you need to know what methods to change to and they differ according to where you hunt, the amount and type of hunting pressure, daily and seasonal timing for every location, comfort in tree height, properly scouting for mature buck daytime signposts, being able to identify adequate security over for daytime movements, scent control regimen, entry and exit routes and the list goes on and on. If you want a bunch of articles that address hunting for mature bucks, send me a request and I'll send them to you. Send hunting articles request to deerjohn51@gmail.com and if you want scent control specific info, request that as well.
Appreciate the offer and I’m sure this is directed at the greater SH member base.
I often refer to my copy of “Bowhunting Whitetails - The Eberhart Way”
It’s been a helpful resource in improving my tactics.
 
Agreed. Once I started driving to counties that looked good on a spreadsheet, I was shocked to see deer on the sides of the road in broad daylight. In my county you'll see a deer or two in peak rut and late summer (after they've eaten most of the browse and before the oaks are dropping) during daylight, but it's super rare. Some areas reminded me more of a petting zoo than open-permit public hunting land.
I experienced the same thing when I moved to MT. In NJ, deer for the most part didn't come out to fields before dark. You might see the occasional deer on the edges right before dark but they definitely didn't feed out in the middle of them. I'm talking about all deer in general. Seeing a big buck in a field in daylight hours just didn't happen during hunting season. You could see some when they were bachlored up in the summer but as soon as the season opened. Nada! You could shine that field at night and see a bunch including some nice ones. Here in MT, it's not uncommon to see them feeding in the middle of the day at 12 noon. An hour before dark it's also not uncommon to see 100+ deer in a field. Mature bucks will come out during the rut and chase does all the time. Of course these fields don't see that much pressure so they feel comfortable doing that. That kinda thing would NEVER happen back in NJ. Too much pressure taught them to move late.
 
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