Kurt
Well-Known Member
It would be my uneducated opinion that it is indeed, basically the same.
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Arrow Build. Vanes?
- Thread starter Weisman125
- Start date
Kurt
Well-Known Member
Mostly that's right. If you added 350grs to your string, (that's a whole lot of brass nocking points), the weight on that string would make your dynamic spine change because the total weight that your bow limbs have to transfere their stored energy to increases, (the arrow and the heavy string) The FoC of your arrow won't change, but the shaft will act dynamically stiffer because the weight added to the string would require energy to move the arrow, weight which the shaft doesn't have to deal with.
Kurt
Well-Known Member
According to Ashby.... oh my, the fletch on an efoc or uefoc arrow only needs to overcome the wind shear of the broadhead, providing the bow and arrows are in tune. He takes it to the nth degree by fletching with more than needed to control the flight and then trims the fletch back until he just notices instabilty in flight and then he adds a turbulator 1/4 inch in front of the feathers to create turbulence which increases pressure on the fletch, which brings back stable flight. All in the name of shaving weight on the back of the arrow, but still maintaining stable flight.
Gamover06
Well-Known Member
OK seriously way over thinking this. upper teens lower 20's FOC and north side of 550 weigh. Tuned arrow and tuned bow and you will be lights out. Run a 250 or 300 arrow and see what tunes the best. NOBODY needs to know the static and dynamic spine of your arrow because you choose to add 350 grains of brass to your string or the paradox of the arrow hitting a target.
Paradox cool to talk about OK but the RF video was so out there. He took a super light arrow that got 4 inches of penetration and it whipped around like a limp noodle with 24 inches of shaft sticking out of the target. The 1200 grain arrow penetrated half the arrow in the target in didn't hardly move …..why because only 12 inches instead of 24 inches were left flapping around......that's why. Cut and arrow at 24 and 12 inches try and bend them what is easier to bend......24 all day.
Use arrow software (OT2go pinwheel is only a couple bucks on google phones) to get you into the right spine with all the weight that you want to add. If it is one the line of weak and stiff go one spine stiffer. If it is solidly in the stiff section your good. Now just go shoot. See what shoots best out of your bow by add or removing weight until you get the arrow flight you are looking for. DO NOT get caught up in the numbers don't force yourself into shooting 20% FOC because they say it will penetrate better if 18 or 17 flies better roll with it your still shooting a heavy arrow with great FOC.
I have read ALOT and listened to a TON of podcast on building the perfect arrow and the end of the day none of it means anything if it doesn't fly great out of your bow. All the reports and reading can do is get you in the ball park but you have to shoot and test everything to get your perfect set up.
Vanes I have 4 Vantec that weight 8 gains each. I tested 4 different vanes all 3 and 4 fletched and they flew the best with my magnus stingers. Field points, fixed and bareshaft all in an 2 inch group out to 40.
I love heavy arrows and higher FOC but if we did everything according to Ashby we would all be shooting 25% FCO and 650 plus grain arrows. Sorry for the rant but I think we are trying to be engineers and pros with out the degrees or actual practice at the range. I am not calling anyone out and it might feel that way but it just feels like people are trying to build the perfect arrow without the range work. If you want to go heavy you NEED to build multiple arrows and see what your bow likes to eat the best.
Paradox cool to talk about OK but the RF video was so out there. He took a super light arrow that got 4 inches of penetration and it whipped around like a limp noodle with 24 inches of shaft sticking out of the target. The 1200 grain arrow penetrated half the arrow in the target in didn't hardly move …..why because only 12 inches instead of 24 inches were left flapping around......that's why. Cut and arrow at 24 and 12 inches try and bend them what is easier to bend......24 all day.
Use arrow software (OT2go pinwheel is only a couple bucks on google phones) to get you into the right spine with all the weight that you want to add. If it is one the line of weak and stiff go one spine stiffer. If it is solidly in the stiff section your good. Now just go shoot. See what shoots best out of your bow by add or removing weight until you get the arrow flight you are looking for. DO NOT get caught up in the numbers don't force yourself into shooting 20% FOC because they say it will penetrate better if 18 or 17 flies better roll with it your still shooting a heavy arrow with great FOC.
I have read ALOT and listened to a TON of podcast on building the perfect arrow and the end of the day none of it means anything if it doesn't fly great out of your bow. All the reports and reading can do is get you in the ball park but you have to shoot and test everything to get your perfect set up.
Vanes I have 4 Vantec that weight 8 gains each. I tested 4 different vanes all 3 and 4 fletched and they flew the best with my magnus stingers. Field points, fixed and bareshaft all in an 2 inch group out to 40.
I love heavy arrows and higher FOC but if we did everything according to Ashby we would all be shooting 25% FCO and 650 plus grain arrows. Sorry for the rant but I think we are trying to be engineers and pros with out the degrees or actual practice at the range. I am not calling anyone out and it might feel that way but it just feels like people are trying to build the perfect arrow without the range work. If you want to go heavy you NEED to build multiple arrows and see what your bow likes to eat the best.
Mr Price
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2018
- Messages
- 541
My point exactly. The heavy point pulls the arrow, except the nock end pushing it
Take said straw and fill with sand and do the same experiment..the straw or arrow is physically heavier but the results will be the same.....nock end weight will increase the arrow paradox especially on hits that aren't square to the target (99% of the time the animal will be in motion so count on the arrow not hitting square everytime)
Mr Price
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2018
- Messages
- 541
Yep. If you get a "not squared up hit" and the nock end is heavy, it will try to whip around causing bad or lack of penetration
Correct. The point of having a clear understanding of dynamic spine along with bow and arrow tuning is to have the arrow leave the bow and travel to the target in the straightest, cleanest fashion possible but also be balanced enough to reduce energy robbing oscillation upon impact. That is why folks building a high FOC arrow from scratch start with a shaft with very low deflection(spine) relative to the bow it will be shot from. That shaft can carry and needs higher weight at the front to get it tuned properly. That shaft also will have much less tail oscillation upon impact with a critter. However if we start with a shaft with a deflection closer to optimum given the bow specs it is more difficult to achieve a high FOC and keep the arrow flying well. As you increase front weight on that shaft it may become a requirement to add some tail weight to keep the arrow flying well. The objective with that shaft is to find the balance point of FOC and tuned flight. It's the difference in building an arrow when a shooter says this is my bow setup, help me build out a great arrow and when a shooter says I have this bow set up and these arrows what can I do to maximize the combo.
swampsnyper
Well-Known Member
Wow! A lot to read through here. Let me just state what I’ve seen while tuning arrows and y’all can figure out why in a scientific way if y’all want to.
With a longbow, shooting with a tab and off the shelf I’ve experienced adding more tip weight, longer shaft, more speed, and less brace height increases the paradox or flexing of the shaft at the shot. I’ll adjust these parameters to tune the bare shaft arrow. Once it’s tuned and I decide, I want to shoot with lighted nocks, and change the regular nocks out for heavier, lighted nocks, my arrows fly stiffer with less flex. And it’s not much. A simple tweak of the brace height will add more speed to weaken it back to tune. Why, I don’t know and it doesn’t matter. Maybe the weight on the back doesn’t let it move side to side as freely. Maybe it’s changing a bunch of parameters that we are not even calculating into figuring out why. All I know is, it flies stiffer and I make adjustment to weaken it back to tune. I’m sure when I add feathers, their weight is doing the same but I can’t tell because feathers are causing drag to straighten the arrow flight out any way. With that in mind, I tune my bare shafts to be slightly weak. If I go over and bare shafts are perfect, I’m still good with that because the weight of the feathers isn’t throwing it out of tune enough to matter. It’s close enough and in a hunting situation, no way my form and release will be as perfect as a concentrated release while tuning. That’s what the feathers are there for. To give forgiveness.
With a longbow, shooting with a tab and off the shelf I’ve experienced adding more tip weight, longer shaft, more speed, and less brace height increases the paradox or flexing of the shaft at the shot. I’ll adjust these parameters to tune the bare shaft arrow. Once it’s tuned and I decide, I want to shoot with lighted nocks, and change the regular nocks out for heavier, lighted nocks, my arrows fly stiffer with less flex. And it’s not much. A simple tweak of the brace height will add more speed to weaken it back to tune. Why, I don’t know and it doesn’t matter. Maybe the weight on the back doesn’t let it move side to side as freely. Maybe it’s changing a bunch of parameters that we are not even calculating into figuring out why. All I know is, it flies stiffer and I make adjustment to weaken it back to tune. I’m sure when I add feathers, their weight is doing the same but I can’t tell because feathers are causing drag to straighten the arrow flight out any way. With that in mind, I tune my bare shafts to be slightly weak. If I go over and bare shafts are perfect, I’m still good with that because the weight of the feathers isn’t throwing it out of tune enough to matter. It’s close enough and in a hunting situation, no way my form and release will be as perfect as a concentrated release while tuning. That’s what the feathers are there for. To give forgiveness.
swampsnyper
Well-Known Member
Now for part 2. Lol
What size feathers? I’ve studied some of Ashby’s test. And I get bored and like to tinker. So I decided to shoot an arrow with a 2 blade fixed broadhead and trim down the feathers after each shot until I noticed unstable flight. I don’t remember the exact measurements but they were a pretty low profiled and smaller than I ever thought was needed. It was around 2in feathers only 3/8in high on the back end. But what I failed to realize was I just created a very unforgiving arrow. Not a hunting arrow.
So what I’m trying to say is, it’s good to research and try to understand every aspect of the arrow. It’s good to tinker and get everything perfect. Just remember hunting scenarios are rarely ever perfect. So after you find that perfect arrow set up, don’t forget to back up and add some forgiveness into your setup.
What size feathers? I’ve studied some of Ashby’s test. And I get bored and like to tinker. So I decided to shoot an arrow with a 2 blade fixed broadhead and trim down the feathers after each shot until I noticed unstable flight. I don’t remember the exact measurements but they were a pretty low profiled and smaller than I ever thought was needed. It was around 2in feathers only 3/8in high on the back end. But what I failed to realize was I just created a very unforgiving arrow. Not a hunting arrow.
So what I’m trying to say is, it’s good to research and try to understand every aspect of the arrow. It’s good to tinker and get everything perfect. Just remember hunting scenarios are rarely ever perfect. So after you find that perfect arrow set up, don’t forget to back up and add some forgiveness into your setup.
Kurt
Well-Known Member
Well put. A great perspective. Thank you.
bloodsoakedberber
Well-Known Member
I'm just here for the experimental video of someone shooting an arrow into a wall at point blank range.
Me too. Hopefully someone goes the extra mile though and shoots a sand-filled-straw into said wall.
Gamover06
Well-Known Member
This is why I shoot 4 fletch with my set up. 3 and 4 grouped almost the same on calm days but I noticed I would get more drift in the wind when I was using a 3 vs a 4. Having a big old fixed blade needs a little more steering when the wind bucks it.
Without significant purposeful effort, you won’t add or subtract enough weight from the nock end of your arrow to make a practical difference. Vanes vs feathers, wraps vs no wrap etc. are simply not enough that you’re ever going to notice. If your arrow spine is close enough (weak end) to be wrong, you’re already flirting with a weak arrow regardless of your nock end decisions.
Terminal performance will not be dictated by a few grains on either end.
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Terminal performance will not be dictated by a few grains on either end.
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Gamover06
Well-Known Member
From what I have seen 25 plus grains for a noticeable difference and even that is iffy. I have 125 and 150 grain broadheads and they group out to 40. 50 it starts to drop out but not that much. IF all is tuned well. I also run my arrows on the stiff side so I can add or subtract weigh an not have to think about it. Right now I can add 75 grains and be good on the front end. The back I have not fully tested.
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Weisman125
Member
This thread really took a turn from "what vanes to use" but I'm loving it. Lots of good info in here.
I was talking more on the spine but yes, absolutely true. I was shooting arrows between 530 and 605 grains last week...field points and broadheads. No difference at 20 or 30 and even at 40 yards the heavy shafts were only 3-5 inches low. I shot 580 and 605 grain arrows at 60 yards and there was no noticeable difference in impact at that range. 25 grains isn’t much.
On the topic of spine, I’m shooting 28” .260 spine Axis shafts. They’re stiff even at 605 grains. Very stiff at 530.
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