Kurt
Well-Known Member
It would be my uneducated opinion that it is indeed, basically the same.I guess I was a little loose with my terminology, but isn't the end result basically the same?
It would be my uneducated opinion that it is indeed, basically the same.I guess I was a little loose with my terminology, but isn't the end result basically the same?
Mostly that's right. If you added 350grs to your string, (that's a whole lot of brass nocking points), the weight on that string would make your dynamic spine change because the total weight that your bow limbs have to transfere their stored energy to increases, (the arrow and the heavy string) The FoC of your arrow won't change, but the shaft will act dynamically stiffer because the weight added to the string would require energy to move the arrow, weight which the shaft doesn't have to deal with.I think we try to over complicate things sometime. If you add weight to the back your FOC will go down and your arrow will be stiffer because your balancing out the weight. The more weight you add to the front the weaker your arrow will get and the higher the FOC.
According to Ashby.... oh my, the fletch on an efoc or uefoc arrow only needs to overcome the wind shear of the broadhead, providing the bow and arrows are in tune. He takes it to the nth degree by fletching with more than needed to control the flight and then trims the fletch back until he just notices instabilty in flight and then he adds a turbulator 1/4 inch in front of the feathers to create turbulence which increases pressure on the fletch, which brings back stable flight. All in the name of shaving weight on the back of the arrow, but still maintaining stable flight.thanks for the suggestion I’ll def look into them. With a high FOC (over 19%) is more or less steering power necessary? It seems that in the past the general consensus was that you need more, however lately I’ve seen claims that you do not need as much steering power on high FOC arrows.
My point exactly. The heavy point pulls the arrow, except the nock end pushing itTake a drinking straw and hold it from the back and try to stab the wall. Take the same straw hold it in the center and stab. Now hold at the stab end and stab into the wall
Take said straw and fill with sand and do the same experiment..the straw or arrow is physically heavier but the results will be the same.....nock end weight will increase the arrow paradox especially on hits that aren't square to the target (99% of the time the animal will be in motion so count on the arrow not hitting square everytime)My point exactly. The heavy point pulls the arrow, except the nock end pushing it
Yep. If you get a "not squared up hit" and the nock end is heavy, it will try to whip around causing bad or lack of penetrationTake said straw and fill with sand and do the same experiment..the straw or arrow is physically heavier but the results will be the same.....nock end weight will increase the arrow paradox especially on hits that aren't square to the target (99% of the time the animal will be in motion so count on the arrow not hitting square everytime)
Correct. The point of having a clear understanding of dynamic spine along with bow and arrow tuning is to have the arrow leave the bow and travel to the target in the straightest, cleanest fashion possible but also be balanced enough to reduce energy robbing oscillation upon impact. That is why folks building a high FOC arrow from scratch start with a shaft with very low deflection(spine) relative to the bow it will be shot from. That shaft can carry and needs higher weight at the front to get it tuned properly. That shaft also will have much less tail oscillation upon impact with a critter. However if we start with a shaft with a deflection closer to optimum given the bow specs it is more difficult to achieve a high FOC and keep the arrow flying well. As you increase front weight on that shaft it may become a requirement to add some tail weight to keep the arrow flying well. The objective with that shaft is to find the balance point of FOC and tuned flight. It's the difference in building an arrow when a shooter says this is my bow setup, help me build out a great arrow and when a shooter says I have this bow set up and these arrows what can I do to maximize the combo.Yep. If you get a "not squared up hit" and the nock end is heavy, it will try to whip around causing bad or lack of penetration
Wow! A lot to read through here. Let me just state what I’ve seen while tuning arrows and y’all can figure out why in a scientific way if y’all want to.
With a longbow, shooting with a tab and off the shelf I’ve experienced adding more tip weight, longer shaft, more speed, and less brace height increases the paradox or flexing of the shaft at the shot. I’ll adjust these parameters to tune the bare shaft arrow. Once it’s tuned and I decide, I want to shoot with lighted nocks, and change the regular nocks out for heavier, lighted nocks, my arrows fly stiffer with less flex. And it’s not much. A simple tweak of the brace height will add more speed to weaken it back to tune. Why, I don’t know and it doesn’t matter. Maybe the weight on the back doesn’t let it move side to side as freely. Maybe it’s changing a bunch of parameters that we are not even calculating into figuring out why. All I know is, it flies stiffer and I make adjustment to weaken it back to tune. I’m sure when I add feathers, their weight is doing the same but I can’t tell because feathers are causing drag to straighten the arrow flight out any way. With that in mind, I tune my bare shafts to be slightly weak. If I go over and bare shafts are perfect, I’m still good with that because the weight of the feathers isn’t throwing it out of tune enough to matter. It’s close enough and in a hunting situation, no way my form and release will be as perfect as a concentrated release while tuning. That’s what the feathers are there for. To give forgiveness.
Well put. A great perspective. Thank you.Now for part 2. Lol
What size feathers? I’ve studied some of Ashby’s test. And I get bored and like to tinker. So I decided to shoot an arrow with a 2 blade fixed broadhead and trim down the feathers after each shot until I noticed unstable flight. I don’t remember the exact measurements but they were a pretty low profiled and smaller than I ever thought was needed. It was around 2in feathers only 3/8in high on the back end. But what I failed to realize was I just created a very unforgiving arrow. Not a hunting arrow.
So what I’m trying to say is, it’s good to research and try to understand every aspect of the arrow. It’s good to tinker and get everything perfect. Just remember hunting scenarios are rarely ever perfect. So after you find that perfect arrow set up, don’t forget to back up and add some forgiveness into your setup.
Me too. Hopefully someone goes the extra mile though and shoots a sand-filled-straw into said wall.I'm just here for the experimental video of someone shooting an arrow into a wall at point blank range.
This is why I shoot 4 fletch with my set up. 3 and 4 grouped almost the same on calm days but I noticed I would get more drift in the wind when I was using a 3 vs a 4. Having a big old fixed blade needs a little more steering when the wind bucks it.Now for part 2. Lol
What size feathers? I’ve studied some of Ashby’s test. And I get bored and like to tinker. So I decided to shoot an arrow with a 2 blade fixed broadhead and trim down the feathers after each shot until I noticed unstable flight. I don’t remember the exact measurements but they were a pretty low profiled and smaller than I ever thought was needed. It was around 2in feathers only 3/8in high on the back end. But what I failed to realize was I just created a very unforgiving arrow. Not a hunting arrow.
So what I’m trying to say is, it’s good to research and try to understand every aspect of the arrow. It’s good to tinker and get everything perfect. Just remember hunting scenarios are rarely ever perfect. So after you find that perfect arrow set up, don’t forget to back up and add some forgiveness into your setup.
From what I have seen 25 plus grains for a noticeable difference and even that is iffy. I have 125 and 150 grain broadheads and they group out to 40. 50 it starts to drop out but not that much. IF all is tuned well. I also run my arrows on the stiff side so I can add or subtract weigh an not have to think about it. Right now I can add 75 grains and be good on the front end. The back I have not fully tested.Without significant purposeful effort, you won’t add or subtract enough weight from the nock end of your arrow to make a practical difference. Vanes vs feathers, wraps vs no wrap etc. are simply not enough that you’re ever going to notice. If your arrow spine is close enough (weak end) to be wrong, you’re already flirting with a weak arrow regardless of your nock end decisions.
Terminal performance will not be dictated by a few grains on either end.
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From what I have seen 25 plus grains for a noticeable difference and even that is iffy. I have 125 and 150 grain broadheads and they group out to 40. 50 it starts to drop out but not that much. IF all is tuned well. I also run my arrows on the stiff side so I can add or subtract weigh an not have to think about it. Right now I can add 75 grains and be good on the front end. The back I have not fully tested.