Falling with slack in your line

[_Dario]

Im not arguing here. Just trying to discuss.

-A 900lb fall is still potentially very deadly.
-screamers don’t just fully deploy their full potential stopping power on any given fall. There is more too it.

there is more to the story than just math too. Maybe you grab a hold of the tree on the way down stopping you enough to not fully deploy the screamer but still have enough force to break your spine.

 

[320thmp]

@320thmp was there a particular screamer in mention you discussed with REI, or just the device(s) in general?

We spoke about a screamer in general... you can go to the yates site and see the ratings for each one.. with a little effort you can figure it out... the facts I gave are the shorty

 

[320thmp]

Im not arguing here. Just trying to discuss.

-A 900lb fall is still potentially very deadly.
-screamers don’t just fully deploy their full potential stopping power.

there is more to the story than just math too. Maybe you grab a hold of the tree on the way down stopping you enough to not fully deploy the screamer but still have enough force to break your spine.

agreed... thats why I was very specific in saying a 6ft fall is stretching it for a saddle hunter and you need to combine it with a dynamic rope
Fact is when you use the screamer in conjunction with a dynamic rope your good to go even in a fall at 6+ feet

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

We spoke about a screamer in general... you can go to the yates site and see the ratings for each one.. with a little effort you can figure it out... the facts I gave are the shorty

Have you heard of DMM international? They made a well known screamer (recently discontinued) I reached out to them they are not REI they actually make screamers. I took the time to explain the application to them and asked their take on its use. Below is the response:
Good morning,



Thanks for getting in touch.



The ripstop has actually been discontinued so this is possibly a moot point anyway but for interest and your research purposes.



I think the ripstop is not the right product for your application.



The ripstop was designed to absorb the shock loaded on the gear placement in ice, to protect the placement and not to shock absorb the force to the load (person) in a fall.



The sling is fully deployed (i.e. extended) at a load of between 3.1-3.4 kN, following this the sling is rated at 22 kN when loaded longitudinally when new.



Typical test results:-

1. To deploy = 3.3, 3.3, 3.1 kN
2. Sling strength (extended) = 29.3, 27.9, 28.0 kN (rated 22 kN)

1 kN = approx.102 kg



So loading the sling at all times is not going to be a good idea, even a small dynamic movement such as a bounce could deploy the sling.



The forces you are enquiring about are high- really high! Even some of the worse factor 2 falls on climbing equipment would expect to generate around 6-7kN and one would expect some injury from experiencing this type of force.



A person experiencing forces of 9kN would have serious consequences.



You should look into some shock absorbers used for work at height, they maybe more suitable but remember that you need to ensure the clearance takes into account the maximum length when the whole system is deployed.



Some reading you may find useful has been published by Petzl here: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Profes...rk-at-height?ActivityName=Energy-and-networks





Best wishes


Holly Lindop
Customer Services
—
DMM International Ltd.
Llanberis, Gwynedd, LL55 4EL
—

 

[_Dario]

I have an idea. Even though arguing is fun why don’t we come up with a consensus on a drop test and all contribute to have it tested. We can see the results and we can argue about that too but it least it’s some applicable data.

 

[DroptineKrazy]

I just got off the phone with REI and the screamer is used in the exact application we would use it in for a hunting situation. A 200 ln body will generate 1800 pounds of force in a 6 foot fall, the screamer activates at 500 pounds and reduces your ft pounds by 900, so it cuts that fall force in half in this given situation. The runner used in the screamer is rated at 5000 lbs also. These are FACTS..

Those numbers don't apply as a one sticking fall would more than likely be half that distance and the screamer may not even deploy in that scenario.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

agreed... thats why I was very specific in saying a 6ft fall is stretching it for a saddle hunter and you need to combine it with a dynamic rope
Fact is when you use the screamer in conjunction with a dynamic rope your good to go even in a fall at 6+ feet

For the record, your last comment that a screamer while also on dynamic rope would make you good in a saddle if you fell 6’, is the exact type of information I want people to avoid. That statement is purely your opinion and has been proven to be untrue in a video that Zach posted on this very thread… again not trying to argue man but that’s exactly why Kyle, myself, Dario, Vtbow and some others speak up on these threads. It’s not to argue or to sound smart. Heck you might be twice as smart as I ever will be. I just don’t want someone reading a statement like that or seeing a video like that, going out with a screamer, falling 3’ and dying or having a broken spine. I don’t wish that on anyone. I don’t care about the “at your own risk crap”. I care that you make the decisions based on reliable information. That is all

 

[320thmp]

Those numbers don't apply as a one sticking fall would more than likely be half that distance and the screamer may not even deploy in that scenario.

Maybe maybe not.... but its there incase.. also the screamer activates at 450 lbs - 500lbs.. a 200 pound body generates 600 pounds in a 3 ft fall which is def possible while 1 sticking.

 

[Zacrowsl]

For the record, your last comment that a screamer while also on dynamic rope would make you good in a saddle if you fell 6’, is the exact type of information I want people to avoid. That statement is purely your opinion and has been proven to be untrue in a video that Zach posted on this very thread… again not trying to argue man but that’s exactly why Kyle, myself, Dario, Vtbow and some others speak up on these threads. It’s not to argue or to sound smart. Heck you might be twice as smart as I ever will be. I just don’t want someone reading a statement like that or seeing a video like that, going out with a screamer, falling 3’ and dying or having a broken spine. I don’t wish that on anyone. I don’t care about the “at your own risk crap”. I care that you make the decisions based on reliable information. That is all

I think he was saying the forces applied in the fall are below the 1800lbs when he says your good. Obviously the way to fall. The way you catch. What you hit. Strength of your core and so on can be huge determining factors in if your alive. Just to keep in context, I don't think he meant your gonna be ok

 

[_Dario]

Maybe maybe not.... but its there incase.. also the screamer activates at 450 lbs - 500lbs.. a 200 pound body generates 600 pounds in a 3 ft fall which is def possible while 1 sticking.

What happens when the screamer activates? Does one stitch pop? If so how much force was reduced after that. Enough to pop a second stitch? The whole thing?

 

[320thmp]

For the record, your last comment that a screamer while also on dynamic rope would make you good in a saddle if you fell 6’, is the exact type of information I want people to avoid. That statement is purely your opinion and has been proven to be untrue in a video that Zach posted on this very thread… again not trying to argue man but that’s exactly why Kyle, myself, Dario, Vtbow and some others speak up on these threads. It’s not to argue or to sound smart. Heck you might be twice as smart as I ever will be. I just don’t want someone reading a statement like that or seeing a video like that, going out with a screamer, falling 3’ and dying or having a broken spine. I don’t wish that on anyone. I don’t care about the “at your own risk crap”. I care that you make the decisions based on reliable information. That is all

How is that false exactly?

 

[Zacrowsl]

Those numbers don't apply as a one sticking fall would more than likely be half that distance and the screamer may not even deploy in that scenario.

There is a screamer test video that Joe referenced above. I've seen it. That screamer will open pretty easily with a small shock drop. Their application is slightly diff but it sure appears to help as he said

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Those numbers don't apply as a one sticking fall would more than likely be half that distance and the screamer may not even deploy in that scenario.

Distance matters but as @boyne bowhunter pointed our so does speed generated in relation to stopping distance. By definition that is the concept of “fall factor”. On static ropes fall factor aren’t as big of a deciding factor as distance but it still plays a part. Having a 3’ fall on 1.5’ of rope can produce as much force or more as a having a 3’ fall on 3’ of rope. Because rope stretches (even static rope). So maybe the screamer doesn’t employ? Or maybe the force is so high that it breaks away the stitches all at once, so even though it slows the fall, it could potentially allow you to fall an extra 4’. We don’t actually know because this isn’t what they were designed to do. They were designed to be an additional attachment to an anchor point in a rock or ice. As they break away they lower impact felt by your anchor. You’d still have the full absorption of a dynamic rope and possibly even a belayer if they were being used correctly. In our application it is the primary shock absorption because it’s between our static rope (or dynamic rope) and our harness. There’s no belayer and there’s no additional 50’ of dynamic rope stretching to absorb shock simultaneously. If that makes sense

 

[Zacrowsl]

What happens when the screamer activates? Does one stitch pop? If so how much force was reduced after that. Enough to pop a second stitch? The whole thing?

Maybe this will help give some insight

 

[_Dario]

Do we even know if a 300lb fall is all it takes to break your spine if you are sitting in a hunting saddle? We are trying to make comparisons but they are not apples to apples.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

There is a screamer test video that Joe referenced above. I've seen it. That screamer will open pretty easily with a small shock drop. Their application is slightly diff but it sure appears to help as he said

Yes DMM said if the stitches are loaded with our body weight that even a slight dynamic event could cause them to activate. Excess swinging can be considered a slight dynamic event. Am I saying that is guaranteed to happen? No I’m not, but it is a very realistic possibility for someone 230 lbs like myself

 

[_Dario]

I did watch that video several months ago and it really didn’t give me any useable insight into saddle hunting. Because that guy is on a lead dynamic single rope with a belayer on the ground in a rock climbing harness tied off into is waist belt and rated leg loops.

let’s start a test fund!

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Maybe this will help give some insight

Keep in mind in that video he also has over 25’ of dynamic line absorbing the shock and a belayer at the bottom. Application is the key context in this video. This was all discussed at length on Kyle’s thread a couple weeks ago.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Do we even know if a 300lb fall is all it takes to break your spine if you are sitting in a hunting saddle? We are trying to make comparisons but they are not apples to apples.

We know that a 900 lbs fall will absolutely do it. Anything less is all chance but 900 lbs is definitely bone crunching force when it is applied solely to your pelvic region.

 

[Zacrowsl]

Keep in mind in that video he also has over 25’ of dynamic line absorbing the shock and a belayer at the bottom. Application is the key context in this video. This was all discussed at length on Kyle’s thread a couple weeks ago.

I realize that. But it does show a screamer opening and reducing. I get that it's diff