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Friction Hitches
- Thread starter Brocky
- Start date
I dont know what to call that knot on the kisa so I am gonna call it a double fishin double bite. How did that get tied, single strand??
It makes a short, strong, soft connector between metal components. It can be made more compact by using smaller cord with more loops. Technically called a double loop, sliding grapevine, or double fishermen’s bend.
John RB
Well-Known Member
@Brocky
That's interesting perspective. Thanks. I had done some research a while back on the appropriate behavior of a friction hitch on a "fall" and the response I got was that we shouldn't subject a friction hitch to a fall. A fall is supposed to be on dynamic ropes and a direct tie in. Ok, so that input i received must have come with flavor from mountaineering, not arborist applications, because clearly there are times when a short fall is possible in arbor or saddle. And the prussik is used on treestand hunting harnesses as the standard. But once it sees a fall, it's jammed and frozen. My personal rule has always been to manage slack religiously and for me it simply means I never want to to be able to fall more than a foot. And whether that's FF2 or FF1 seems negligible at that short distance according to my crude testing. And i expect it to hold, not slide. It's something we can test if we care to. I have intentionally fallen (and bounced) that short distance many times in tests to gauge if I found the slipping point. And it may be different with a wet rope or dry.
If you get a chance, feel free to tie this auto tending hitch and let me know your thoughts. On arb diameters, i only needed 4 upper wraps. But on saddle diameters, I use 5, as shown in video, for reliable performance. Once i got the loop length figured out, i realized i can tie this in 15 sec with high reliability. For saddle hunting situations, that allows me to just pop it on in the woods, whenever i need it and for whatever application.
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That's interesting perspective. Thanks. I had done some research a while back on the appropriate behavior of a friction hitch on a "fall" and the response I got was that we shouldn't subject a friction hitch to a fall. A fall is supposed to be on dynamic ropes and a direct tie in. Ok, so that input i received must have come with flavor from mountaineering, not arborist applications, because clearly there are times when a short fall is possible in arbor or saddle. And the prussik is used on treestand hunting harnesses as the standard. But once it sees a fall, it's jammed and frozen. My personal rule has always been to manage slack religiously and for me it simply means I never want to to be able to fall more than a foot. And whether that's FF2 or FF1 seems negligible at that short distance according to my crude testing. And i expect it to hold, not slide. It's something we can test if we care to. I have intentionally fallen (and bounced) that short distance many times in tests to gauge if I found the slipping point. And it may be different with a wet rope or dry.
If you get a chance, feel free to tie this auto tending hitch and let me know your thoughts. On arb diameters, i only needed 4 upper wraps. But on saddle diameters, I use 5, as shown in video, for reliable performance. Once i got the loop length figured out, i realized i can tie this in 15 sec with high reliability. For saddle hunting situations, that allows me to just pop it on in the woods, whenever i need it and for whatever application.
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Coachschaller
Active Member
Tried the Longhorn-Agile friction hitch tonight.
Normally I use 5,6,cordage or 7mm stirling on 12mm static line (I think it is Canyon) to both SRT and rappel. Lately I have used the JRB ascender in soft-bridge mode. The JRB at times needs to be started by spreading/squeezing the hitch when SRT climbing, or it sometimes is too loose to grab. Or I just lean back a little more for a better angle. The Longhorn-Agile had some of the same issues at first.
I used 7mm sterling for this test.
My initial testing on the ground worked pretty well. When I tried simulating a fall with some slack the hitch slipped on the climbing rope very slowly and steadily - it was like a nice, slow rappel. This happened a couple of times so I tried adjusting the hitch:
First, I tried six wraps instead of five. The hitch was a little too tight around the climbing rope. It worked, but with more effort than the 5 wrap or the JRB ascender. It was also a little tight to easily autotend.
Second, I retied the hitch into 6 wraps with only 1 wrap under instead of 2. No significant difference
Third, I retied the hitch with 5 wraps and 1 under. No significant difference.
Fourth, I retied the hitch as shown (5 wraps and 2 under). I tried dressing the hitch a little better and could not get it to slip when simulating a fall.
Positives:
It is a nice variant that can be tied in the woods - as long as the Longhorn portion is pre-tied.
Autotends very well. Holds well once it is set. Releases well. (I did not try a hitch only rappel yet - but it seems like it would do great in an emergency situation). This hitch does not spread out as much as the double mich or the JRB ascender.
Negative:
I was able to get the hitch to slip. It was not engaged when I simulated a fall, but would not slip if it was engaged first. Once again, the descent was really slow.
Overall:
It is going to compete with the JRB ascender. I will need to try 4 wraps and do some more testing to see which I like better.
Normally I use 5,6,cordage or 7mm stirling on 12mm static line (I think it is Canyon) to both SRT and rappel. Lately I have used the JRB ascender in soft-bridge mode. The JRB at times needs to be started by spreading/squeezing the hitch when SRT climbing, or it sometimes is too loose to grab. Or I just lean back a little more for a better angle. The Longhorn-Agile had some of the same issues at first.
I used 7mm sterling for this test.
My initial testing on the ground worked pretty well. When I tried simulating a fall with some slack the hitch slipped on the climbing rope very slowly and steadily - it was like a nice, slow rappel. This happened a couple of times so I tried adjusting the hitch:
First, I tried six wraps instead of five. The hitch was a little too tight around the climbing rope. It worked, but with more effort than the 5 wrap or the JRB ascender. It was also a little tight to easily autotend.
Second, I retied the hitch into 6 wraps with only 1 wrap under instead of 2. No significant difference
Third, I retied the hitch with 5 wraps and 1 under. No significant difference.
Fourth, I retied the hitch as shown (5 wraps and 2 under). I tried dressing the hitch a little better and could not get it to slip when simulating a fall.
Positives:
It is a nice variant that can be tied in the woods - as long as the Longhorn portion is pre-tied.
Autotends very well. Holds well once it is set. Releases well. (I did not try a hitch only rappel yet - but it seems like it would do great in an emergency situation). This hitch does not spread out as much as the double mich or the JRB ascender.
Negative:
I was able to get the hitch to slip. It was not engaged when I simulated a fall, but would not slip if it was engaged first. Once again, the descent was really slow.
Overall:
It is going to compete with the JRB ascender. I will need to try 4 wraps and do some more testing to see which I like better.
John RB
Well-Known Member
Coach, that's a lotta good information here. One observation that hit me was at the start: Why would you use a 5.6 or 7mm cord on a 12mm rope? Although the Bachmann performs best with a small cord, for friction hitches I try to stay around a 75% ratio. For 12mm rope, I would think we want an 8mm cord minimum, and still only a 66% ratio. I do have a couple 11mm ropes and i did test a 7mm Sterling Longhorn Agile and it worked flawlessly with 4-2. 5-2 was only slightly more difficult to move and likely a much higher slipping point. Also, if you're testing the standard Agile Hitch, I do recommend that ya use a carabiner handle inside it. It's going to help you grip and move it AND help the hitch resist jamming. I don't recommend using anything other than the 2 (twice around the back) for the lower stage. In my testing, once slipped too easily.
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- Joined
- Mar 8, 2022
- Messages
- 3,068
Anyone have thoughts on friction hitches on doubled lines? The only info I've seen is that they hold better, only one source so not trustworthy. I'm not ready to share what I'm scheming yet. Sorry to be a turd but I'm not confident enough to put a potentially terrible idea out into the public realm
John RB
Well-Known Member
I did quite of bit of it 10yrs ago. Old school Footlock climbers still do it on a Klemheist. But overall, I don't recommend it for conventional climbing. Why? Because as I climb up it, as you approach the tree crotch, the width of the tree is spreading the rope strands apart and it will slip... it basically can only get so close to the crotch and that distance varies with the width of the branch or trunk. But it's an uncomfortable feeling when ya climb 25 ft and right at the point ya wanna be most secure, your hitch starts slipping.
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Coachschaller
Active Member
I think it is supposed to be a 10 or 11 mm rope...
The 7 mm seems to work well, maybe almost too big!!!
The 6 and 5 both worked really well with the JRB Ascender
I was using the Longhorn-Agile, not the standard Agile. Tried a couple of runs with it and I prefer the JRB ascender.
The JRB ascender in soft-bridge mode has been working great. I can rope climb with the loop long and single, but when I get to height, I can double up the loop and make it shorter for my tether. The nice thing about the Longhorn-Agile is that the Longhorn can be tied ahead of time and then easily build the hitch in the woods - or, take the hitch off if I want to retrieve my rope through a tree crotch.
Battle of two awesome hitches, just picking which might be better with my limited gear. It is fun to play around.
Thanks for the advice and for the innovation.
Something 9-10mm is ideal, but 8mm will also work. The Tendon Timber and Ocean Polyester are a couple of the cheaper ones, EpiCord and RIT are also popular, so is HRC, but only comes as an 8mm.
For those of us a little slow on the uptake, what are we doing here?
That's for DRT ?
John RB
Well-Known Member
Hey @Brocky and friends,
Anyone have experience with Twaron, an Aramid fiber, in friction hitches?
On the left is the Sterling RIT 900, a 6.8mm Hollow Block, made of Twaron fiber, with incredible heat resistance and strength. MBS: 4136 lb, 18.4kN. That's the only color, although I know it will fade a bit as it gets used and gets dirty.
On the right is Sterling standard 7mm Accessory Cord, Nylon, MBS 2787 lb or 12.4kn. Good heat resistance. And although I used red, that's available in several good hunting colors.
Both perform great in my side by side testing.
What I don't know is which has better life expectancy... which will last longer in terms of simply wearing over time as it rubs against the rope to which its tied. Opinions welcome. Thx.
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Anyone have experience with Twaron, an Aramid fiber, in friction hitches?
On the left is the Sterling RIT 900, a 6.8mm Hollow Block, made of Twaron fiber, with incredible heat resistance and strength. MBS: 4136 lb, 18.4kN. That's the only color, although I know it will fade a bit as it gets used and gets dirty.
On the right is Sterling standard 7mm Accessory Cord, Nylon, MBS 2787 lb or 12.4kn. Good heat resistance. And although I used red, that's available in several good hunting colors.
Both perform great in my side by side testing.
What I don't know is which has better life expectancy... which will last longer in terms of simply wearing over time as it rubs against the rope to which its tied. Opinions welcome. Thx.
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- Joined
- Feb 4, 2021
- Messages
- 5,009
Hey John, a couple things a)hollow blocks are great back up hitches because they are small lightweight and heat resistant but because they are hollow, they shouldn’t be used as a main life support hitch (it says as much in the brochure). It could cut itself by rubbing and because it’s hollow it could be prone to binding or flattening out. I realize you use two hitches, I just wanted to point out the dangers of a hollow block as a main life support so that guys don’t start using them in place of actual prusik cord.Hey @Brocky and friends,
Anyone have experience with Twaron, an Aramid fiber, in friction hitches?
On the left is the Sterling RIT 900, a 6.8mm Hollow Block, made of Twaron fiber, with incredible heat resistance and strength. MBS: 4136 lb, 18.4kN. That's the only color, although I know it will fade a bit as it gets used and gets dirty.
On the right is Sterling standard 7mm Accessory Cord, Nylon, MBS 2787 lb or 12.4kn. Good heat resistance. And although I used red, that's available in several good hunting colors.
Both perform great in my side by side testing.
What I don't know is which has better life expectancy... which will last longer in terms of simply wearing over time as it rubs against the rope to which its tied. Opinions welcome. Thx.
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Technora and Twaron are aramids that are basically the same as Kevlar. In essence they have high strength to weight (twaron is a tiny bit heavier than technora at just slightly less strength), twaron stretches even less than technora so it doesn’t like to be shock loaded, it has the same high heat flame resistance, and it doesn’t do well in sunlight at all. It also absorbs water at a slightly higher rate than technora. So basically it’s a para armid with all the same strengths and weaknesses as Kevlar.
The manufacturer of Twaron has a brochure that breaks down its strengths comparatively to technora. In this brochure it specifically mentions avoiding sunlight, needing a special water treatment if being used near water or electricity and also mentions elongation and dynamic loading.
- Joined
- Mar 8, 2022
- Messages
- 3,068
Can I tag on a question here? Good, thanks.
What is the life expectancy of a fiction cord? Do you evaluate that by eye? All fuzzy and floppy is time to retire? Obviously hard or glazed spots are an issue to, but I've seen that people just retie the hitch to deal with that sort of issue?
Mostly curious. Hitch cord is cheap enough to buy plenty and toss it for new if there's any doubt whatsoever. Still good to know how to evaluate one that isn't obviously compromised
What is the life expectancy of a fiction cord? Do you evaluate that by eye? All fuzzy and floppy is time to retire? Obviously hard or glazed spots are an issue to, but I've seen that people just retie the hitch to deal with that sort of issue?
Mostly curious. Hitch cord is cheap enough to buy plenty and toss it for new if there's any doubt whatsoever. Still good to know how to evaluate one that isn't obviously compromised