Friction Hitches

[gcr0003]

Slip how bad? We talking a few uncomfortable inches until it grabbed or a slow ride down a rappel rope? (I know you 2TC a lot with it.)

Hitches don’t typically grab again once they start slipping. I haven’t 2TC with it much lately since it’s been unreliable for me. I’ve had it slip while rope climbing and while 2TC. Both were a pain but rope climbing was worst of the two. I stick to a WLR or standard prussic these days mostly.

 

[Horn]

Odd how much different experiences can be with different hitches. I'm not doubting you at I'm any way @gcr0003 . The stitch has been awesome for me and the WLR not so much

 

[gcr0003]

Odd how much different experiences can be with different hitches. I'm not doubting you at I'm any way @gcr0003 . The stitch has been awesome for me and the WLR not so much

It has a lot to do with combinations of cords and rope used. I’ve used a several different combinations with similar results. On the ones where it never slipped it was always too tight to move up and down. I’m sure there’s a happy medium but I’ve struggled the most to find it with the sticht. The WLR has worked consistently for me but I don’t like how long of a hitch it becomes when weighted. That’s why I liked the smaller package of the sticht hitch.

 

[Brocky]

Did you try adding a wrap?

I only use the typical wraps on the WLR, the two part wrap of the original seemed to grab too much for all but the small dyneema cords.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

Did you try adding a wrap?

I only use the typical wraps on the WLR, the two part wrap of the original seemed to grab too much for all but the small dyneema cords.

I was having some slippage with the usual 4 wraps with 6mm TRC on 9mm HTP, and I did what you suggested: added a wrap (actually two just because I had the extra length), tightened the space where the cross-behind and the ring (soft sticht, mind you) meet up with the hitch, and shortened the tails, making the whole thing a lot more compact. It’s doing exactly what I want it to now. Still testing but I’m not having issues with grab nor tend.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

Would like to see a photo. 6mm on 9.5... I typically use 7mm but am sure 6 works. I don't own HTP so I can't say about the ideal # of wraps. But in general, the number of wraps on any friction hitch is how we TUNE it for optimal performance. In general, i use one more wrap than what "seems to hold". The reason why is cuz i have done a fair amount of formal and informal wet testing, where everything is completely soaked. In general, we need another wrap.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[Brocky]

Including the other side of the loop helps with cross loading the carabiner, called a Sliding Double Fishermen’s, or Grapevine bend.

 

[Brocky]

@Seekbigger, this version of the Sticht, on left, is the most compact version. A Distel is a little smaller, but not as easy to break.

 

[Seekbigger]

@Seekbigger, this version of the Sticht, on left, is the most compact version. A Distel is a little smaller, but not as easy to break.
View attachment 94362

Thanks, Brocky!!! I’ll see if this helps! God Bless

 

[Seekbigger]

Could you send the diagram to tie the hitch this way please, I’m sure you have posted it but having a hard time finding it lol!

 

[Brocky]

On page 22, post 436 of this thread.

 

[casts_by_fly]

The WLR, the similar Synergy X, the Oval VT and the similar Sticht, and the JRB, as mentioned are the ones that will release easily every time. Other hitches will also release initially, but most will bind up with repeated loading and unloading cycles.

Thanks @Brocky , @John RB , and everyone else. I finally got to try the longhorn agile on a rappel setup and its slicker than goose poop on a clay river bank. And I mean that in the good way. I just tested it at 'as high as I can reach' with the rappel rope height. It slides up and down the rope with 2 fingers, breaks easily while under load, and catches with about 4" of 'tug' when I let go of the repel rope. I went with 6mm accessory cord on 9mm rope and it feels pretty good. Its new rope, new cord, and dry, so a couple things to keep an eye on going forward. Going to give it a run this evening in the tree with a 2TC setup.

thanks
rick

 

[John RB]

Typically, I find slick goose poop offensive, but in this case, it's great to hear, lol.

Ok now, circling back to the Agile Hitch, at it's core, it's a modified Klemheist. It's not as performant as some of the others in this thread, but I like using it in my DSRT climbing (where it only sees half my weight) because it's so easy to tie that if we ever have trouble getting a rope with a friction hitch thru a tight tree crotch, its not a big deal to take it off and put it back on again after the rope is rigged. But if ya don't use a carabiner handle, ya might not be pulling on the bottom as ya climb and that action is what keeps a little "space" in the hitch and allows it to expand and contract just the right amount as we climb. So here's another option I have been climbing on... I tied a pair of Agile hitches with 5 wraps... but the working end was a Longhorn Hitch... and simply put the load loop through both loops in the Longhorn to finish it. Yes, it's a little bulky, but that bulky knob gives my hand something substantial to grab and pull on as i climb, so no need for a carabiner handle. I am in no rush to do a video on it, but just wanted to keep y'all in the loop in what i am working on.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[Iron_llama]

Another option for hitch and fig 8, only need to open the carabiner to add friction, add one more bight on the carabiner to get two finger holding.
View attachment 93140
A bound up hitch can be freed by using a foot lock on the rope and standing up on it.

I've been using this approach this year. Started with WLR and switched today to Longhorn Agile. I'm not so much using the 8 as a tender, but i have it rigged so I can bail out pretty much instantly. Very convenient, and no chance of dropping a piecenof critical gear.

 

[smcchevy]

Thanks @Brocky , @John RB , and everyone else. I finally got to try the longhorn agile on a rappel setup and its slicker than goose poop on a clay river bank. And I mean that in the good way. I just tested it at 'as high as I can reach' with the rappel rope height. It slides up and down the rope with 2 fingers, breaks easily while under load, and catches with about 4" of 'tug' when I let go of the repel rope. I went with 6mm accessory cord on 9mm rope and it feels pretty good. Its new rope, new cord, and dry, so a couple things to keep an eye on going forward. Going to give it a run this evening in the tree with a 2TC setup.

thanks
rick

@John RB i am having trouble releasing the longhorn when I'm rappelling down, this could be my rope choice (6mm acc on 8mm rescue tech) should I play around with wrap count or try something else.

I guess I got spoiled using a double meech setup. Do you have any advice?

Also @Brocky i think your knowledge and pictures are amazing.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

*Insert obligatory disclaimer about this not being instructional and how if you do this the consequences are your own fault not anyone else’s*
40’ of HTP, 4-wrap Soft Sticht w/ 7mm Bluewater attached to the 8, stays unattached from bridge until I’m ready to rappel, 3-wrap Agile with 6mm TRC can be hunted from as a tether hitch, then spaced below the bighted 8 combo as a brake strand control and backup. I used this twice last weekend and I was very happy with performance. The 7mm BW, as I suspected, grabbed as readily but released more easily than the TRC for the Sticht with little appreciable heat, and the TRC is superb for holding power on my 9mm HTP as a static hitch and rappel brake/tender. The Agile releases readily but with the smaller diameter I feel comfortable using only the 3 wraps (I tried 4 and it was just a little too hot on rappel).

Whole setup compacts to about 10” x 5” x5” if I’m being conservative (40’ of rope, 2 hitches, 2 biners, f8, quick link, knots, stopper beads). My release is for comparison.

I’m seriously stoked on this thread. Learning rope fluency is a pretty cool avenue of exploration and I have immense respect for not just the innovation in here, but also the knowledge of what’s already come that y’all share. It’s helped me in a huge way.

Yes, this is a bit of a “look at me” post but it’s pertinent to the discussion we’ve been having and I was packing my kit away so I figured I’d drop a line in here. And to say thanks again.

 

[krub6b]

View attachment 95136
*Insert obligatory disclaimer about this not being instructional and how if you do this the consequences are your own fault not anyone else’s*
40’ of HTP, 4-wrap Soft Sticht w/ 7mm Bluewater attached to the 8, stays unattached from bridge until I’m ready to rappel, 3-wrap Agile with 6mm TRC can be hunted from as a tether hitch, then spaced below the bighted 8 combo as a brake strand control and backup. I used this twice last weekend and I was very happy with performance. The 7mm BW, as I suspected, grabbed as readily but released more easily than the TRC for the Sticht with little appreciable heat, and the TRC is superb for holding power on my 9mm HTP as a static hitch and rappel brake/tender. The Agile releases readily but with the smaller diameter I feel comfortable using only the 3 wraps (I tried 4 and it was just a little too hot on rappel).

Whole setup compacts to about 10” x 5” x5” if I’m being conservative (40’ of rope, 2 hitches, 2 biners, f8, quick link, knots, stopper beads). My release is for comparison.

I’m seriously stoked on this thread. Learning rope fluency is a pretty cool avenue of exploration and I have immense respect for not just the innovation in here, but also the knowledge of what’s already come that y’all share. It’s helped me in a huge way.

Yes, this is a bit of a “look at me” post but it’s pertinent to the discussion we’ve been having and I was packing my kit away so I figured I’d drop a line in here. And to say thanks again. View attachment 95137

That is a slick setup

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[John RB]

@John RB i am having trouble releasing the longhorn when I'm rappelling down, this could be my rope choice (6mm acc on 8mm rescue tech) should I play around with wrap count or try something else.

I guess I got spoiled using a double meech setup. Do you have any advice?

Also @Brocky i think your knowledge and pictures are amazing.

It's hard to make an accurate assessment without a photo, but here are some general considerations. The force necessary to break a Longhorn Agile hitch under load is affected by its design and its state:
1. 6mm on 8mm has a LOT less surface area than 7 on 9 and that's going to affect your ability to get consistent hold and break.
2. How many wraps and how tightly or loosely it's tied or set. There's a sweet spot.
3. How much weight is on it.
4. How much it has set into the rope. It can set harder after a long sit.

If ya can't break it, i would start by putting some of your weight on the rope under it first. Just squeeze a bight and put one foot in it and some weight. Next, I would simply move it up one inch and then break it. Pls include a photo.... it's worth a thousand words, or so I have heard!



JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

That is a slick setup

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Took about 7 or 10 rappels to get it this way lol. I’m sure it will change again but for now it’s officially “kit”.

 

[John RB]

Hey friends. I am hoping someone has a name or a prior @Brocky sketch or an opinion here. What do I have here? It's similar to the Agile Hitch in its construction but evenly loads both sets of strands off the top and into the bottom of the helix... in that light, it's similar to the Longhorn Agile... cuz I can break it under load. It self tends beautifully. It's completely compact and non jamming. And of course, we tune the # of wraps as necessary. I tied it starting with the cord inside the carabiner: 5 wraps upward, straight down and around the back (like Agile), then closed around the carabiner with a flat overhand bend, tied as compact as possible.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com