Hypothetically, what would be the best cross loading carabiner?

[Horn]

Goran Kropp killed while rock climbing in Washington

TraditionalMountaineering provides information and instruction about alpine mountain climbing safety skills, gear, off trail hiking and light weight backpacking, photographed on actual mountaineering adventures.

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“Subsequent studies of the broken carabiner revealed that the wire gate was not distressed; in other words the carabiner appears to have failed because its gate was open. While a gate-closed carabiner failure is rare, carabiners with their gates open lose as much as two-thirds of their strength, making failure in a fall a real possibility.”

It's ALWAYS a possibility

 

[NMSbowhunter]

That's sad to hear. I could have been something as simple as bad metallurgy or metal fatigue. If there are literally tens of thousands of items in use some will fail. The story says the carabiner was possibly jammed in a crack causing the gate to open so they are open to user error as the cause also. In any event, a sad outcome but it seems to be one of those exceptions that prove the rule. I doubt mountaineers and rock climbers have thrown away their wire gates.

I'm sure if you look around hard enough you can find an instance of a screw gate carabiner failing. If we truly want to make a commitment to being safe, we can hunt off the ground (which I have started doing more and more of).

 

[Plebe]

It's ALWAYS a possibility

Probably a screw gate doesn’t do that. At least not so easily. It’s called gate chatter (or flutter). But even then, how often do folks fail to secure them, right?

Look, I’m all for a discussion of these things and a deep dive on pros and cons of the different variants of carabiner is fine and dandy.

Denigrating “the safety police”, I’m not for that.

 

[Horn]

Probably a screw gate doesn’t do that. At least not so easily. It’s called gate chatter (or flutter). But even then, how often do folks fail to secure them, right?

Look, I’m all for a discussion of these things and a deep dive on pros and cons of the different variants of carabiner is fine and dandy.

Denigrating “the safety police”, I’m not for that.

I'm sorry someone got hurt or died. That single example is like the guy who died because he had his seat belt on. It ignores the infinite mountain of evidence that seat belts are a good idea. Non locking carabiner are also safe

 

[Plebe]

Risk and dangers while handling carabiners | EDELRID

Even the best carabiner can be a potential source of danger if not used properly. Here are the main risks associated with carabiners to avoid.

edelrid.com

The whiplash effect occurs when the back of a carabiner, i.e. the side opposite the gate, hits hard against a solid surface (for example a rock face). In the event of a fall, as the rope is pulled taught, the carabiner is often banged against the wall and shock loaded. Due to inertia the gate opens for a split second. It's easy to simulate the whiplash effect yourself. Simply bang the back of a normal carabiner against the edge of table or the back of your hand. You'll hear the clicking sound of the gate opening and closing, though you don't see it because it happens so quickly. This brief moment where the carabiner opens is potentially dangerous. If the carabiner is loaded at the exact moment when it is open, then it will have less than half its normal breaking strength compared to when it is closed

 

[Plebe]

I'm sorry someone got hurt or died. That single example is like the guy who died because he had his seat belt on. It ignores the infinite mountain of evidence that seat belts are a good idea. Non locking carabiner are also safe

they replacing seat belts with wire gate g-hooks or something, lol.

 

[Crawdaddy4]

Probably a screw gate doesn’t do that. At least not so easily. It’s called gate chatter (or flutter). But even then, how often do folks fail to secure them, right?

Look, I’m all for a discussion of these things and a deep dive on pros and cons of the different variants of carabiner is fine and dandy.

Denigrating “the safety police”, I’m not for that.

I definitely fall on the "Safety Conscious" side of the spectrum. However, I am notorious for forgetting to screw my gate closed on the carabiner for my lineman's belt attachment.

 

[Chandler96]

Probably a screw gate doesn’t do that. At least not so easily. It’s called gate chatter (or flutter). But even then, how often do folks fail to secure them, right?

Look, I’m all for a discussion of these things and a deep dive on pros and cons of the different variants of carabiner is fine and dandy.

Denigrating “the safety police”, I’m not for that.

I think criticizing the "safety police" is completely fine. Just because someone has some work as an arborist or a climber and didn't use wire gate carabiners doesn't mean they're not safe. If someone relies on them 100's of feet in the air I would think they are pretty safe. being a safety police is trying to control what others do to feel safe by either shaming them or telling them it's not safe. When really, we are just a bunch of hunters that don't know much about the subject.

 

[Plebe]

I think criticizing the "safety police" is completely fine. Just because someone has some work as an arborist or a climber and didn't use wire gate carabiners doesn't mean they're not safe. If someone relies on them 100's of feet in the air I would think they are pretty safe. being a safety police is trying to control what others do to feel safe by either shaming them or telling them it's not safe. When really, we are just a bunch of hunters that don't know much about the subject.

It’s not a matter of “safe”. It’s a matter of understanding performance and related risk.

Blanket statements fail to address that folks should be making informed decisions.

 

[Chandler96]

It’s not a matter of “safe”. It’s a matter of understanding performance and related risk.

Blanket statements fail to address that folks should be making informed decisions.

So, you don't think the majority of people understand the risk to the performance? I think if you made a claim, I could find 2 more claims saying that they don't agree. Not saying you personally but in general. Climbing in general has risk, Man made items have risk. I think it's the probability of something happening that we will never know. We can look at past statistics but never the future.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Beats me but I suspect it's part of our never ending contest to see who can be the safest safety supervisor of them all.

If I were going to go with a normal 'biner I'd use a Rondo with slide lock or whatever from Australpine

50 seconds in.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

Agreed. If you are an adult, look at the data and make an informed decision about using one over the other. If you then want to use wire gates, or screw gates or only use quick links you tighten with a set of wrenches every time, who am I to argue with you.

 

[Horn]

Risk and dangers while handling carabiners | EDELRID

Even the best carabiner can be a potential source of danger if not used properly. Here are the main risks associated with carabiners to avoid.

edelrid.com

The whiplash effect occurs when the back of a carabiner, i.e. the side opposite the gate, hits hard against a solid surface (for example a rock face). In the event of a fall, as the rope is pulled taught, the carabiner is often banged against the wall and shock loaded. Due to inertia the gate opens for a split second. It's easy to simulate the whiplash effect yourself. Simply bang the back of a normal carabiner against the edge of table or the back of your hand. You'll hear the clicking sound of the gate opening and closing, though you don't see it because it happens so quickly. This brief moment where the carabiner opens is potentially dangerous. If the carabiner is loaded at the exact moment when it is open, then it will have less than half its normal breaking strength compared to when it is closed

I believe that this only happens with solid gate nonlockers. Supposedly there isn't enough mass in a wire gate for this whiplash action to happen.

 

[Horn]

It’s not a matter of “safe”. It’s a matter of understanding performance and related risk.

Blanket statements fail to address that folks should be making informed decisions.

Blanket assuming that one party knows more than some other party is foolish as well

 

[Chandler96]

50 seconds in.

Thats a pretty radical movement and I get what you're saying but I've never had a carabiner twist while on the tree and have the rope around the tree push it off.

 

[Horn]

Also, safety patrol derailers. Have any of you noticed that open gate and crossloaded usually have the same or very similar strength ratings?

 

[Plebe]

50 seconds in.

Twin gate. Available in 3 flavors.

Gate-gate
Wire-wire
Gate-wire

 

[Plebe]

Blanket assuming that one party knows more than some other party is foolish as well

I see

 

[Horn]

50 seconds in.

Hownot2 also has a video opening a twin gate from Grivel

 

[Plebe]

So, you don't think the majority of people understand the risk to the performance? I think if you made a claim, I could find 2 more claims saying that they don't agree. Not saying you personally but in general. Climbing in general has risk, Man made items have risk. I think it's the probability of something happening that we will never know. We can look at past statistics but never the future.

No. I’m saying some dude that just climbed a tree telling folks it’s safe to use a wire gate carabiner, or that folks don’t because they’re a bunch of posers offers no value to the readership.