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Hypothetically, what would be the best cross loading carabiner?

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Plebe said:
No. I’m saying some dude that just climbed a tree telling folks it’s safe to use a wire gate carabiner, or that folks don’t because they’re a bunch of posers offers no value to the readership.
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So, you're not saying they're safe or not safe. You just don't want people with no experience saying they're safe or not safe?

What if it is safe? what if they're correct?

I'm not trying to go at you, but do you have experience saying these aren't safe? if you are indeed saying they are not safe.
 
Wire gates are usually used in multiples for climbing and additionally for ease of use (clipping in with one hand and/or tool). I use wire gates on almost all my removable aiders, packs, etc. The issue that I have with them personally for life support, is not while loaded, it's when slack is induced into the system. If the carabiner is clipped on, slack is induced, a portion of that slack comes back across the gate, and then is subsequently loaded; the carabiner will effectively unclip itself... I wouldn't have too much of a personal issue with a double wire-gate, but we all know how personal safety confidence varies. I just choose to keep myself accountable, and if I wouldn't rec climb or do arborist "stuff" with it, I'm probably not using it OR I'm using it in a different scope. If I was single, maybe my safety factors would be skewed. I know what I used to do, and some of that stuff would make me quake now lol.
 
NMSbowhunter said:
Agreed. If you are an adult, look at the data and make an informed decision about using one over the other. If you then want to use wire gates, or screw gates or only use quick links you tighten with a set of wrenches every time, who am I to argue with you.
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I think @Plebe's point is that when someone presents that data they are immediately labeled as the safety police. Look a the progression of this thread. Someone asked the question "why don't people use wire gates?" several jokes were immediately made about fitting in and safety police and then when @Plebe and @Nutterbuster presented some examples that people might want to consider in their decision it was immediately followed up with a bunch of chatter that amounts to "But other things are dangerous too and why do you think you know more than me?"
 
GCTerpfan said:
I think @Plebe's point is that when someone presents that data they are immediately labeled as the safety police. Look a the progression of this thread. Someone asked the question "why don't people use wire gates?" several jokes were immediately made about fitting in and safety police and then when @Plebe and @Nutterbuster presented some examples that people might want to consider in their decision it was immediately followed up with a bunch of chatter that amounts to "But other things are dangerous too and why do you think you know more than me?"
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I mean if we have to make jokes about fitting in and safety police, I think the safety police and people ostracizing others for using things that they wouldn't use needs to stop also.
 
Let's get one thing straight. In climbing, wire gate carabiner is never the sole piece keeping you among the living. Lead climbing you attach the rope to rock as you progress every 6-15ft and there a non-locking is fine because you have the next piece to catch you in relatively rare case of one becoming unclipped (or trad placement failing). If you've just done a heroic runout and face a hard move, lot of people actually place a locker on there. Often you also place extra piece or two of protection as well.

In general, two non-locking carabiners clipped in opposing orientation is considered as safe as one locking carabiner so that would be a situation where non-locking wiregates are used as a pair for sole protection, eg. master point of an anchor.

Say one sticking you have your tether on the tree and put your weight on the linemans belt. The rope is taking care of your safety while linemans belt is there for support. Then it would be considered ok to have non-locking carabiner on the linemans belt. Then if you're multi-sticking without tether, you're convincing yourself the linemans belt will do something other than make sure the next stick will catch your jaw ie. the LMB is considered a safety device and needs a locking carabiner for connection.

Those HowNot2 videos of locking carabiners unclipping.. do understand the context of the video. It's not to demonstrate what you should prepare for. If you're creating such situation while hunting you've done several mistakes already. Or more likely have carefully set up the situation to make a TikTok of a hypothetical dangerous situation for social media clout.
 
samu said:
Let's get one thing straight. In climbing, wire gate carabiner is never the sole piece keeping you among the living. Lead climbing you attach the rope to rock as you progress every 6-15ft and there a non-locking is fine because you have the next piece to catch you in relatively rare case of one becoming unclipped (or trad placement failing). If you've just done a heroic runout and face a hard move, lot of people actually place a locker on there. Often you also place extra piece or two of protection as well.

In general, two non-locking carabiners clipped in opposing orientation is considered as safe as one locking carabiner so that would be a situation where non-locking wiregates are used as a pair for sole protection, eg. master point of an anchor.

Say one sticking you have your tether on the tree and put your weight on the linemans belt. The rope is taking care of your safety while linemans belt is there for support. Then it would be considered ok to have non-locking carabiner on the linemans belt. Then if you're multi-sticking without tether, you're convincing yourself the linemans belt will do something other than make sure the next stick will catch your jaw ie. the LMB is considered a safety device and needs a locking carabiner for connection.

Those HowNot2 videos of locking carabiners unclipping.. do understand the context of the video. It's not to demonstrate what you should prepare for. If you're creating such situation while hunting you've done several mistakes already. Or more likely have carefully set up the situation to make a TikTok of a hypothetical dangerous situation for social media clout.
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I understand what the videos are, I only posted them because most people seem to treat all other carabiner styles as failure proof. I only posted to show that it is possible for other styles to open, as that's the main thing people point to on nonlockers.

Thank you for pointing out safer ways to use wiregates rather thank just calling them and anyone who would consider one... impolite things
 
Going away from best and recommended practices into what happens on the rock stays on the rock. Among with unclipping everything while chanting "don't jump, don't jump.." if you place constant load on carabiner and have your eyes on that carabiner during whatever you're doing and are doing little enough anything else you don't forget you're attached to gear that can't be left unsupervized... Well what happens on the rock stays there that's the point of knowing what you do and bearing the consequences.

Publicly in these forum discussions, just stick to well known practices even if you do crazy ass **** yourself. One you don't know who reads these and decides to repeat it. Second, you need to know the safe practices so you know what corners you're cutting. Probably most importantly, if you're ever in a situation where someone elses life is depending on your actions. Say you rig a lifeline on a tree stand and let your friend use it one day. You don't ever stray from standard safe practices when someone elses life is depending on you.

More likely situation while rock climbing. One you might cause someone to fall, two you falling might kill whoever you used for cushion.
 
Horn said:
The safest safety crowd overtakes and dominates every thread to the point that a discussion can't be had publicly
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That's an interesting take. By my quick count there are about 1.5 posts in this thread advocating for wire gates for each post advocating against them. It also, at least to me seems like there are a few posts that are offering serious discussions of best climbing practices in an effort to advance the discussion but, with the exception of @NMSbowhunter's post that mentioned Alpine climbing practices (which further explanation was offered by @samu) all of the posts on the other side of the spectrum amount to "but, but, safety police!, other things are dangerous too and why do think you know more than me?"
 
I'm still not sure what we're talking about here.

If you want to crossload a carabiner, why wouldn't you just use a delta link and reduce risk? What do you gain and what do you risk? Convenience vs a fall?

If you want to use a wiregate, why not just use a locking carabiner? What do you gain and what do you risk? Convenience vs a fall.

If those thoughts make me overbearing safety police, PM me and I'll tell you where to send the badge. This is pretty easy stuff.
 
GCTerpfan said:
That's an interesting take. By my quick count there are about 1.5 posts in this thread advocating for wire gates for each post advocating against them. It also, at least to me seems like there are a few posts that are offering serious discussions of best climbing practices in an effort to advance the discussion but, with the exception of @NMSbowhunter's post that mentioned Alpine climbing practices (which further explanation was offered by @samu) all of the posts on the other side of the spectrum amount to "but, but, safety police!, other things are dangerous too and why do think you know more than me?"
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Just because you have a different outlook on something doesn't mean the other side is "crying" or "complaining" Sometimes one "party" takes control and if another says something they tend to overshadow or look down upon them. It obvious you're on the side of the safety police but if you're looking for videos or other items, we can post those too.


When we do this though people jump out and say that his videos aren't real. In this one it's much more drastic than a hunting situation.

I wasn't even specifically asking about wire gate carabiners even though I'm much more intrigued by them now after they were brought up and i did research about them. I hope everyone does that but I'm not responsible if someone doesn't.
 
Nutterbuster said:
I'm still not sure what we're talking about here.

If you want to crossload a carabiner, why wouldn't you just use a delta link and reduce risk? What do you gain and what do you risk? Convenience vs a fall?

If you want to use a wiregate, why not just use a locking carabiner? What do you gain and what do you risk? Convenience vs a fall.

If those thoughts make me overbearing safety police, PM me and I'll tell you where to send the badge. This is pretty easy stuff.
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I mean with a delta link you gain weight savings and clipping time. If the delta link is 40kn and the carabiner is 26kn and I'll never reach either I'd rather just use a carabiner. Same with a wire gate, just so much easier to use and lighter weight. It doesn't make you the safety police, because you don't care what I use. Other people on this site care and make a big deal. Some people call out other people, some people block other people. Get into arguments. Those are the safety police.
 
Chandler96 said:
It would have to be a very, very hard tree and a very, very pointed edge for pretty much any hunter to break a carabiner when used in a tether situation
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I've had in mind to try and get Ryan from HowNot2 to run series of tests where carabiner is used to hitch around round timber of various thicknesses to figure out if there is a combination where the carabiner breaks first. As the bending radius gets smaller the wood also gets weaker. And to get the answer if using a carabiner for tether adjustment in trees in usual diameters is dangerous at all. My hypothesis is even with 4" tree it will be "super good enough"

Overall I think it would be cool to get them do some saddle hunting specific tests there at some point. Especially dummy drops with onesticking slack in rope as well as dropping stuff on linemans belt.
 
samu said:
I've had in mind to try and get Ryan from HowNot2 to run series of tests where carabiner is used to hitch around round timber of various thicknesses to figure out if there is a combination where the carabiner breaks first. As the bending radius gets smaller the wood also gets weaker. And to get the answer if using a carabiner for tether adjustment in trees in usual diameters is dangerous at all. My hypothesis is even with 4" tree it will be "super good enough"

Overall I think it would be cool to get them do some saddle hunting specific tests there at some point. Especially dummy drops with onesticking slack in rope as well as dropping stuff on linemans belt.
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I was thinking that while watching some of his videos. You should reach out to him that would be awesome.
 
I have tested carabiners in place of a screw link. The issue, even with an aluminum locking carabiner, is the weight of it tends to loosen and slide down the tree when un weighted because the large opening doesn't provide enough friction on the rope.

The same is true with a delta/ screw link. Both will fall but the screw link falls less for me and takes up less space is my pouch.

You can use a stopper of some sort but it's one more thing to deal with and I find it more of a nuisance when I 2TC. The stopper prevents me from moving my hitch when i need to and adds an additional step.

The time savings between using a screw link/ delta compared to locking carabiner is almost nothing. Or use a non locking wire gate and you still run into the girth hitch slipping down when you don't want it to, and the possibility of the gate coming open.
 
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