I"ve read a lot about kickouts, gaff outs, "Partial Falls" and potential accidents lately....

[Vtbow]

I"m just curious why people think these are happening. @g2outdoors said just yesterday he's had a few incidents, @sureshotscott has shared his experience as well, which I think allowed a lot of others to open up about experiences they've had. It's not even really "hunting season"... It's just starting to seem like the percentage of incidents is extremely high and maybe growing?

Are people making things too complicated? are they going to fast? Are they not becoming 100% proficient with each component of their climbing system before they add in an aider, or start spacing things out, or?

I think the knaider and swaider is the perfect example. I think @Peterk1234 is extremely effective at this. I also think he practiced a TON. Watch his videos. hes is extremely methodical and precise with everything he does. He moves smoothly and comfortably. But how about those people who buy 5 we steps, and the knaider, and the aider the same week? they throw a couple WE steps on the tree and then start using the knaider/swaider. no buono. As someone who has tried WE steps many times and still doesn't use them, I think it takes an entire season to become effective using them by themselves, just as designed.

This is meant to be more of a topic of discussion than anything. I know not every climbing method is for everyone-I know what I like and don't- but sometimes it seems like people aren't really aware what they're getting into...

 

[ThePreBanMan]

I think a lot of it is attributed to DIY climbing equipment and gear. I also think that people do not properly assess their chosen climbing methods. Testing under ideal conditions in the back yard on a straight tree during summer is a far cry from being in the deer woods in the dark on a crooked tree with limbs, etc. or in the cold with gloves and heavy clothing where movement is restricted, etc...

 

[Vtbow]

I think a lot of it is attributed to DIY climbing equipment and gear. I also think that people do not properly assess their chosen climbing methods. Testing under ideal conditions in the back yard on a straight tree during summer is a far cry from being in the deer woods in the dark on a crooked tree with limbs, etc. or in the cold with gloves and heavy clothing where movement is restricted, etc...

Agreed. And it takes a lot of practice even in ideal conditions to be proficient. Though I do think DIY climbing methods can be solid and a lot of members of this community have come up with some great ideas and solutions.

 

[ImThere]

I have said this before and will repeat my self. People are pushing the limit like never before. Like 5 years ago I asked about using an aider with a Wildedge step. EVERYONE quickly jumped on me told me how unsafe it was. Someone on Archery talk had taken a bad fall. I got one PM begging me not to try it and one guy even told me I should not bring it up on the any open forum because someone may try it and get hurt. Now we are knaider, swaider, aider in right up the tree. It takes time the be truly proficient with a climbing method. Actually with anything in life You don’t just one day wake up at 25 years old and play in the NFL it takes time and practice.
I practice climbing and falling so I know how to react when things go wrong.



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[LooyvilleLarry]

I practice climbing and falling so I know how to react when things go wrong.
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We need a video of how to practice falling.. I have done it once or twice (pucker factor 9 ) especially when learning spurs. I was tethered at the time.

I did have one fall in the saddle. from not double checking a carabiner. You can be damn sure I physically and visually verify that they are on and closed and locked now. Every. Damn. TIme.

 

[boyne bowhunter]

Some of this may be the off-season effect. This is the season, at least for me where I try new things and approaches to try to fine tune or maybe even find an all new/better solution to accessing the tree. Ideally these trials are done at low height, as @sureshotscott described. Hopefully most of these reports are of issues occurring only a few feet off the ground. That said, it is easy to have a few successes at low height and develop a premature sense of security that can lead to more severe issues when thigs go sideways once up the tree. A good practice, when trying things at height for the first time, is to truely consider about how/what things can go wrong and carry a backup plan to self-rescue if needed.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

Practice and technique is the key

I fell once. An improperly closed carabiner

I had some inversions with a five step aider but not for a long time

Practice and good technique
Even a step ladder can be dangerous


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[elk yinzer]

I attribute a lot of it to the backyard practice effect. 70 degree weather, gym shorts, the pristine telephone pole white oak in my backyard--yeah I can get up that sucker no problem. 30 degrees, sleeting, been in the stand for 9 hours, just shot a nice buck, adrenaline, delirium, tired, hungry--there's a reason I like to keep my climbing system simple enough to deal with those conditions.

 

[EricS]

People are pushing the limits. You never know just what your limit is until you go to far. That’s why it’s best to practice and become proficient with a method in a location where you can get help and start low to the ground. Of course actual conditions during a hunt can make a seemingly safe method a tragic event. I will say it seems more people on this forum actually practice more compared to other forums. How many practice with rubber boots on? How many practice in the dark or rain? How many practice with their backpack and bow on their back if they plan to access the tree that way?
I think aiders and other methods can be safe. Anyone that uses aiders will have one kick out eventually.

 

[bowhuntr09]

I went down that road last year. I bought an 8 pack of stepps, a 5 step etrier, and hook. I stretched my ropes but was never good at getting them tight and remaining tight to the tree. One step on the 5 step etrier and I knew that wasn't for me. I think some people may not be comfortable but they don't want to wimp out or admit defeat. I personally like my bones intact and prefer to walk vs a wheelchair so I bailed on those ideas pretty quickly. If I'm not comfortable doing it, I'm not going to do it.

 

[flinginairos]

I attribute a lot of it to the backyard practice effect. 70 degree weather, gym shorts, the pristine telephone pole white oak in my backyard--yeah I can get up that sucker no problem. 30 degrees, sleeting, been in the stand for 9 hours, just shot a nice buck, adrenaline, delirium, tired, hungry--there's a reason I like to keep my climbing system simple enough to deal with those conditions.

Exactly this. As well as different tree/bark types plus add in mud on the boots and wet gear. All that comes into play!

 

[flinginairos]

I will admit that in three years of spur use I have gaffed out on one leg twice. Both times I remained in control and kept going. I tried the WE steps with kn/sw last year and it worked great in the yard. First hunt with it I was two miles back on public in a funky tree and my second step up kicked on me as I was standing on it. It didn't come off the tree but it made coming down really difficult. I decided then it just wasn't for me. I haven't had much issue with anything else.

 

[boyne bowhunter]

I went down that road last year. I bought an 8 pack of stepps, a 5 step etrier, and hook. I stretched my ropes but was never good at getting them tight and remaining tight to the tree. One step on the 5 step etrier and I knew that wasn't for me. I think some people may not be comfortable but they don't want to wimp out or admit defeat. I personally like my bones intact and prefer to walk vs a wheelchair so I bailed on those ideas pretty quickly. If I'm not comfortable doing it, I'm not going to do it.

My exact experience last year with a 5 step etrier. It's been relegated to the "unused equipment" box in the basement. Loved the idea, never felt comfortable enough to get above the first WE step. Just not for me.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

My exact experience last year with a 5 step etrier. It's been relegated to the "unused equipment" box in the basement. Loved the idea, never felt comfortable enough to get above the first WE step. Just not for me.

Five step aiders don’t bother me. But I am practicing one sticking for this year instead of sticks and LONG aiders

One sticking seemed hard until I practiced. Some think spurs are dangerous. Not with practice. Every method has a degree of risk
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[Kurt]

RISKY BUSINESS, BABY. If you want to shave weight, and have a more packable system your gonna pay, one way or another. I'd rather pay in time, than in injury. YOU CANNOT EMPLOY ANY SYSTEM WITHOUT SOME RISK. Everyone needs to individually access their skill level, fitness, and the amount of risk they are willing to take. I spend a lot of time tying on stepps, and practicing with the K/S. I also have been a tree climber all my life. Anyone who thinks that they can buy some gear they're not familiar with and go climb a tree because they read some forum, or watched a video is crazy. I'll bet that I've tied on my stepps 1000 times or more. I go out almost every day and tie on stepps half a dozen times or more. Sound boring , and excessive I know, and it is, but I don't want any surprises at 5 am when I'm headed up a tree. That being said, **** happens, but I'm willing to roll those dice. PRACTICE DOES NOT MAKE PERFECT. If you are unwilling to spend a boat load of time practicing / polishing your method then the alternative is to assume more risk. We can't practice on the same tree in our back yard and assume we can climb any tree in the woods. We actually have to strap on our gear and go out in the woods and climb a bunch of different trees. In the day, under ideal conditions, and with a buddy when you can. Then we have one piece of the skill set we need to apply our method. As hunters we climb in the dark. We climb in the snow, and rain. We climb in the cold, and extreme heat. We climb trees that might not be ideal. These are the conditions we need to practice in, a lot....... and still we assume risk. I had some kick outs in my early days with the K/S. I learned real quick, and over time what I could, and could not do with this method. Over time I over came some of my cherry limitations. But I still know that at certain times, under certain conditions, I have limitations. It's my decision if I want to push the limits and assume more risk. I am 55 yrs old and have a wife and 4 kids, I do not assume risk lightly. VIVA the year of safety.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

RISKY BUSINESS, BABY. If you want to shave weight, and have a more packable system your gonna pay, one way or another. I'd rather pay in time, than in injury. YOU CANNOT EMPLOY ANY SYSTEM WITHOUT SOME RISK. Everyone needs to individually access their skill level, fitness, and the amount of risk they are willing to take. I spend a lot of time tying on stepps, and practicing with the K/S. I also have been a tree climber all my life. Anyone who thinks that they can buy some gear they're not familiar with and go climb a tree because they read some forum, or watched a video is crazy. I'll bet that I've tied on my stepps 1000 times or more. I go out almost every day and tie on stepps half a dozen times or more. Sound boring , and excessive I know, and it is, but I don't want any surprises at 5 am when I'm headed up a tree. That being said, **** happens, but I'm willing to roll those dice. PRACTICE DOES NOT MAKE PERFECT. If you are unwilling to spend a boat load of time practicing / polishing your method then the alternative is to assume more risk. We can't practice on the same tree in our back yard and assume we can climb any tree in the woods. We actually have to strap on our gear and go out in the woods and climb a bunch of different trees. In the day, under ideal conditions, and with a buddy when you can. Then we have one piece of the skill set we need to apply our method. As hunters we climb in the dark. We climb in the snow, and rain. We climb in the cold, and extreme heat. We climb trees that might not be ideal. These are the conditions we need to practice in, a lot....... and still we assume risk. I had some kick outs in my early days with the K/S. I learned real quick, and over time what I could, and could not do with this method. Over time I over came some of my cherry limitations. But I still know that at certain times, under certain conditions, I have limitations. It's my decision if I want to push the limits and assume more risk. I am 55 yrs old and have a wife and 4 kids, I do not assume risk lightly. VIVA the year of safety.

Well even a step ladder is dangerous. Or an icy sidewalk... The totally elimination of risk is not possible. Practice, have good technique and do what you can to mitigate risk. How many people have fallen from ladder stands. Ladder stands seem like an easy way to climb a tree but....

 

[g2outdoors]

I think it's just a limitation of the gear. The WE Stepp was not designed to be used with long straps and Hooks hanging off of it. It's not the fault of the Stepp Ladder if we use it incorrectly. But it simply doesn't work for me consistently when you throw on those long swaiders and aiders.

I probably used the KN/aider method 10-12 times last season in a hunting scenario. That's with 4 Stepp ladders. So on the high side I had 48 reps in a hunting scenario with the system. I had 2 kickouts that scared me. So I had a 4% "failure rate". That's waaaaay too high. Both cases were in the dark too. That complicates things.

I'm not suggesting it won't work for some people that use it a little differently than me, or in a different environment. But for me, it's too risky.

Again - I'm not blaming the Stepp. It's not the fault of a piece of gear if we use it incorrectly.

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[ImThere]

We need a video of how to practice falling.. I have done it once or twice (pucker factor 9 ) especially when learning spurs. I was tethered at the time.

I did have one fall in the saddle. from not double checking a carabiner. You can be damn sure I physically and visually verify that they are on and closed and locked now. Every. Damn. TIme.

you don't slip and let your tether catch you? I have kicked sticks off the tree to try to figure out how I'm getting down, I've tried to fall out of every saddle I have. I damn sure dont want my first oops to be 20 ft up 1 mile deep in the woods where no one knows where I am.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

I don’t use WE steps but I know my failure rate with sticks and a long aider was zero the past year . Several kickouts the first year


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[bowhuntr09]

Well even a step ladder is dangerous. Or an icy sidewalk... The totally elimination of risk is not possible. Practice, have good technique and do what you can to mitigate risk. How many people have fallen from ladder stands. Ladder stands seem like an easy way to climb a tree but....

Its funny you mention a ladder. I can go sit and even sleep in a tree all day but I pay to have my gutters cleaned cause I refuse to get on an extension ladder.