Is Ashby's #1 goal flawed?

[raisins]

Here is the response to the email I sent to the ashbybowhunting foundation.org
Another thing that I'd like to point out is that Ashby used to go to butcher shops that were processing deer during gun season and he offered them $5 for each (non fatal) broadhead they found in each of the gun fatal deer. He said he started running out of money. The point is that this is another example of the extent he goes to in order to study arrow lethality.


Tom:

Thank you for forwarding the post. I read the initial post only and not the entire thread. The comments regarding a pass-through by Dr. Ashby are not misleading at all, as BC states. BC is wanting people to disregard the entire medical community that impaled objects retard blood loss. This includes veterinarians and the studies/findings of the Royal College of Veterinary Science that a passthrough is more lethal than having the arrow remain in the animal. This goes against simple Boy Scout First Aid that if you are impaled with an object not to pull the object out as it could make the bleeding worse. This is not theory, it is fact and proven by many – ask any Doctor. An arrow and broadhead kill by hemorrhagic shock, and if you have a 2-3 inch wide cut that goes maybe 2-3 inches deep and maybe gets one lung vs a 1.25” wide cut that passes through an animal and presumably taking out both lungs…1 or more feet of penetration, common sense should prevail here and this is a non-topic. Bullets kill by three methods, hydrostatic shock as long as that projectile is above a certain speed, cavitation and hemorrhagic shock.



We have many videos of 70# compound shooters using what I would consider a light to mid-weight arrow system with an expandable failing to penetrate ribs on 120-140# Texas whitetails and subsequent game camera photos of those deer with scars on them – alive and well and walking around.



Here are a few videos for you to share with your crew online:


https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-to-treat-an-impaled-object-1298804

https://digg.com/2021/paramedic-dem...r-ever-remove-an-impaled-object-from-a-person

https://www.firstaidforfree.com/first-aid-measures-for-an-impaled-object/

https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN14135_TC 4-02x1 C2 INCL FINAL WEB.pdf

https://journals.lww.com/em-news/fulltext/2001/09000/The_Diagnosis__Impalement_Injury.14.aspx


If BC wants to contact us either through the webpage or via email, he is more than welcome to do so and we’ll be glad to help him out, as we are here to help all bowhunters.



Thank you,

Rob



Rob Neilson

Co-Founder & President

Ashby Bowhunting Foundation

www.ashbybowhunting.org

i wonder if anyone dip old broadheads from the drawer in blood and collected $$

 

[BCHunter]

Here is the response to the email I sent to the ashbybowhunting foundation.org
Another thing that I'd like to point out is that Ashby used to go to butcher shops that were processing deer during gun season and he offered them $5 for each (non fatal) broadhead they found in each of the gun fatal deer. He said he started running out of money. The point is that this is another example of the extent he goes to in order to study arrow lethality.


Tom:

Thank you for forwarding the post. I read the initial post only and not the entire thread. The comments regarding a pass-through by Dr. Ashby are not misleading at all, as BC states. BC is wanting people to disregard the entire medical community that impaled objects retard blood loss. This includes veterinarians and the studies/findings of the Royal College of Veterinary Science that a passthrough is more lethal than having the arrow remain in the animal. This goes against simple Boy Scout First Aid that if you are impaled with an object not to pull the object out as it could make the bleeding worse. This is not theory, it is fact and proven by many – ask any Doctor. An arrow and broadhead kill by hemorrhagic shock, and if you have a 2-3 inch wide cut that goes maybe 2-3 inches deep and maybe gets one lung vs a 1.25” wide cut that passes through an animal and presumably taking out both lungs…1 or more feet of penetration, common sense should prevail here and this is a non-topic. Bullets kill by three methods, hydrostatic shock as long as that projectile is above a certain speed, cavitation and hemorrhagic shock.



We have many videos of 70# compound shooters using what I would consider a light to mid-weight arrow system with an expandable failing to penetrate ribs on 120-140# Texas whitetails and subsequent game camera photos of those deer with scars on them – alive and well and walking around.



Here are a few videos for you to share with your crew online:


https://www.verywellhealth.com/how-to-treat-an-impaled-object-1298804

https://digg.com/2021/paramedic-dem...r-ever-remove-an-impaled-object-from-a-person

https://www.firstaidforfree.com/first-aid-measures-for-an-impaled-object/

https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN14135_TC 4-02x1 C2 INCL FINAL WEB.pdf

https://journals.lww.com/em-news/fulltext/2001/09000/The_Diagnosis__Impalement_Injury.14.aspx


If BC wants to contact us either through the webpage or via email, he is more than welcome to do so and we’ll be glad to help him out, as we are here to help all bowhunters.



Thank you,

Rob



Rob Neilson

Co-Founder & President

Ashby Bowhunting Foundation

www.ashbybowhunting.org

So obviously it's not ideal to remove an object from a wound.... this still doesn't take into account the shape of the object and how much it actually effects the bleeding... It doesn't address the total area of the wound channel vs just the length. So those articles and videos aren't helpful at all.

How many broadheads from Ashby approved arrows pass through guts of a deer and don't provide a good enough blood trail to recover the deer but a giant mechanical would? We will never know. The percentage of people who shoot regular muzzys compared to a COC will lead to way more mishaps with those heads in general.

Talking about a mechanical that only penetrates a few inches compared to a COC that passes through isn't rooted in reality unless we are talking shoulder blades.

 

[kyler1945]

Sort of related, but sort of unrelated...

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. Blood trail quality is overrated. Selecting aim points and equipment that result in faster loss of oxygen/blood to the brain, tracking skills, and pride swallowing in the decision to call in a dog, are all underrated.

 

[JSEXTON23]

So obviously it's not ideal to remove an object from a wound.... this still doesn't take into account the shape of the object and how much it actually effects the bleeding... It doesn't address the total area of the wound channel vs just the length. So those articles and videos aren't helpful at all.

How many broadheads from Ashby approved arrows pass through guts of a deer and don't provide a good enough blood trail to recover the deer but a giant mechanical would? We will never know. The percentage of people who shoot regular muzzys compared to a COC will lead to way more mishaps with those heads in general.

Talking about a mechanical that only penetrates a few inches compared to a COC that passes through isn't rooted in reality unless we are talking shoulder blades.

How is that not rooted in reality when they just provided video of animals being hit in the rib cage and getting little penetration?

As far as gut shot deer not leaving blood trails, again, there is plenty of evidence that mechanicals also don't leave much blood on those hits. You hit a deer in the guts with anything it is likely to stay alive for hours or days. You are being incredibly selective with your presumptions.

 

[BCHunter]

Sort of related, but sort of unrelated...

I'm just gonna go ahead and say it. Blood trail quality is overrated. Selecting aim points and equipment that result in faster loss of oxygen/blood to the brain, tracking skills, and pride swallowing in the decision to call in a dog, are all underrated.

Sadly I've not had good luck on actually getting blood tracking dogs to come out for a couple of buddy's bad shots and have heard the same from multiple people.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[BTaylor]

Talking about a mechanical that only penetrates a few inches compared to a COC that passes through isn't rooted in reality unless we are talking shoulder blades.

I have to disagree with that statement due to the sheer number of hunting shows and you tube vids that have shown deer shot with big cut mechanicals that were no where near big bone and didnt come close to passing through. Deer got dead and in many cases the blood trail was good but it is never optimum to, imo, shoot a setup that doesnt have a high degree of likelihood of making 2 holes regardless of the head chosen. As an example, for my compound setup, I have found that shooting a spitfire max I need to have a TAW no less than 450 grains to consistently expect pass throughs. With regular spitfires 400 grains is consistent. The differences are cutting diameter and blade angle. Anecdotal obviously but it goes back to the point that all aspects of the setup matter as does the animal being hunted if the objective is to consistently produce the largest holes possible and expect a passthrough. The alternative is to shoot a setup that removes consideration of animal or angle of shot which would be the Ashby setup.

 

[BCHunter]

How is that not rooted in reality when they just provided video of animals being hit in the rib cage and getting little penetration?

As far as gut shot deer not leaving blood trails, again, there is plenty of evidence that mechanicals also don't leave much blood on those hits. You hit a deer in the guts with anything it is likely to stay alive for hours or days. You are being incredibly selective with your presumptions.

There are also videos of slow arrows going over the back of the deer, or hitting super high, even hitting them in the head. Would a faster arrow have killed them? Who knows.

Can you link to the evidence of mechanical vs fixed blade gut shot blood trails and how long they live?

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[JSEXTON23]

There are also videos of slow arrows going over the back of the deer, or hitting super high, even hitting them in the head. Would a faster arrow have killed them? Who knows.

Can you link to the evidence of mechanical vs fixed blade gut shot blood trails and how long they live?

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

Can you link to any evidence to the contrary? Evidence, not anecdote.

There are plenty of videos of guys shooting 270 fps plus having deer duck arrows. Your point is mute. Watch the balloon drop videos on deer dropping. You cannot beat a deer's reaction with any current archery setup. Period. If slow arrows are such a big concern, then traditional archery hunters would hardly ever kill a deer. On the contrary, I see guys shooting relatively light draw weights and heavy arrows getting pass throughs and often watching deer drop within sight.

 

[BCHunter]

Can you link to any evidence to the contrary? Evidence, not anecdote.

No, that's why I keep asking for links to these studies that prove a COC is more lethal and more deer are recovered than a mechanical on a whitetail with a high poundage compound bow with medium weight 400-500 grain arrows.

This wasn't the original intent of the thread, but it keeps on being brought up.

Does having 2 holes automatically make a shot more lethal even if the wound channel is way smaller than a larger head that only makes it most of the way through?

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[JSEXTON23]

No, that's why I keep asking for links to these studies that prove a COC is more lethal and more deer are recovered than a mechanical on a whitetail with a high poundage compound bow with medium weight 400-500 grain arrows.

This wasn't the original intent of the thread, but it keeps on being brought up.

Does having 2 holes automatically make a shot more lethal even if the wound channel is way smaller than a larger head that only makes it most of the way through?

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

I think you might be better off sticking with your 5" mechanical. It works for you and that is what matters.

The problem with the evidence you are asking for is that we have ethical constraints on what can and cannot be performed. However, there are plenty of medical doctors and veterinarians that have studied trauma pertinent to this discussion. The overwhelming consensus is to leave the object, whatever it is, in the wound channel. If you want to question that well-established medical opinion, then I'm not sure a bunch of bowhunters can help you.

 

[Swingin' Free]

Does having 2 holes automatically make a shot more lethal even if the wound channel is way smaller than a larger head that only makes it most of the way through?

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

Simple answer, YES
Lightweight setups are also louder then heavier setups. Gives more advanced notice of impending doom for the critter.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

So obviously it's not ideal to remove an object from a wound.... this still doesn't take into account the shape of the object and how much it actually effects the bleeding... It doesn't address the total area of the wound channel vs just the length. So those articles and videos aren't helpful at all.

How many broadheads from Ashby approved arrows pass through guts of a deer and don't provide a good enough blood trail to recover the deer but a giant mechanical would? We will never know. The percentage of people who shoot regular muzzys compared to a COC will lead to way more mishaps with those heads in general.

Talking about a mechanical that only penetrates a few inches compared to a COC that passes through isn't rooted in reality unless we are talking shoulder blades.

As Rob said, you are welcome to discuss this directly with the foundation. It's obvious that we are each dug in on our respective sides of this issue. I base my position on the wealth of information and data that Ashby has accumulated over several decades on real world encounters.
And I'm not forgetting that the man is doing this as a non-profit. He's not a rep for a gear manufacturer and he has no financial interest in selling us a particular design. He wants what is best for bowhunting.
He doesn't even accept royalties from allowing Grizzlystik to use his name for the Ashby broadhead that they sell. He's just on a relentless pursuit to study the most effective arrow/broadhead combination. I don't know what other info you need. I suspect that there is a lot of the Ashby info that you have not read, saw or heard on podcasts, etc. I said earlier, the whole subject has to be view on the totality of data. It seems like this thread has gotten off subject, but in reality, we need to view all the info as a total package.

We often hear "Shoot what works for you" or "Shoot what you have confidence in". Those positions are usually based on a fairly small sample size by hunters with a relatively small number of kills under their belt. That is not the case with the Ashby studies. We are talking about extensive data collection and thorough autopsies on thousands of kills.
How's that saying go... "There is none so blind as those which refuse to see"?

My hope with my posts is to help inform some of the new hunters or those on the fence about the arrows they choose to hunt with. I hope it sparks curiosity to dig deeper into the data that the studies show. I've given up on trying to convince you about anything regarding arrow lethality. But someone else that is reading this just might gain some valuable insight.

Good luck with your gear, sincerely.
And please keep us informed with your interaction with the foundation.
BTW, you are welcome for my effort to contact them for you and post their reply.

 

[BCHunter]

Simple answer, YES
Lightweight setups are also louder then heavier setups. Gives more advanced notice of impending doom for the critter.

The noise issue is also an interesting, I've seen/heard guys talk about it's more the arrow noise that causes a deer to drop. They have video of deer the same distance from the shooter, but off to the side 20-30 yards, that don't react to the shot noise. Compared to the targeted deer that drops when the arrow is headed their way.

 

[kyler1945]

two holes don't CAUSE death, they CORRELATE strongly with death/recovery rates - both anecdotally and in studies/data.

I firmly believe the difference in noise at the bow means nothing, it's the arrow noise/movement after the shot has already gotten the deer's attention.

Evidence to support this? If deer ducked at every sound as near, loud and sudden as a bow shot in the woods, they'd constantly be ducking and running.

 

[Weldabeast]

The answer is simple once u really think about it.....keep a long string on ur arrow and if it sticks in a deer, now u have the option to leave it in or yank it out

 

[BCHunter]

As Rob said, you are welcome to discuss this directly with the foundation. It's obvious that we are each dug in on our respective sides of this issue. I base my position on the wealth of information and data that Ashby has accumulated over several decades on real world encounters.
And I'm not forgetting that the man is doing this as a non-profit. He's not a rep for a gear manufacturer and he has no financial interest in selling us a particular design. He wants what is best for bowhunting.
He doesn't even accept royalties from allowing Grizzlystik to use his name for the Ashby broadhead that they sell. He's just on a relentless pursuit to study the most effective arrow/broadhead combination. I don't know what other info you need. I suspect that there is a lot of the Ashby info that you have not read, saw or heard on podcasts, etc. I said earlier, the whole subject has to be view on the totality of data. It seems like this thread has gotten off subject, but in reality, we need to view all the info as a total package.

We often hear "Shoot what works for you" or "Shoot what you have confidence in". Those positions are usually based on a fairly small sample size by hunters with a relatively small number of kills under their belt. That is not the case with the Ashby studies. We are talking about extensive data collection and thorough autopsies on thousands of kills.
How's that saying go... "There is none so blind as those which refuse to see"?

My hope with my posts is to help inform some of the new hunters or those on the fence about the arrows they choose to hunt with. I hope it sparks curiosity to dig deeper into the data that the studies show. I've given up on trying to convince you about anything regarding arrow lethality. But someone else that is reading this just might gain some valuable insight.

Good luck with your gear, sincerely.
And please keep us informed with your interaction with the foundation.
BTW, you are welcome for my effort to contact them for you and post their reply.

I don't feel like we are that far off on what we think. I just don't think anyone has the proof that expandables are as terrible as the heavy arrow folks say they are if shot out of a well tuned bow with a 400-500 grain arrow.
Heavy arrows come with their own set of issues. Also people shouldn't just aim for the shoulder on a quartering too shot just cuz they are following the ranch fairy. As with most of these "movements", the leader is usually more in the middle and reasonable than the followers.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I don't feel like we are that far off on what we think. I just don't think anyone has the proof that expandables are as terrible as the heavy arrow folks say they are if shot out of a well tuned bow with a 400-500 grain arrow.
Heavy arrows come with their own set of issues. Also people shouldn't just aim for the shoulder on a quartering too shot just cuz they are following the ranch fairy. As with most of these "movements", the leader is usually more in the middle and reasonable than the followers.

My position is that the arrow/head combination that has been proven to be the most effective is what I want. "Good" is okay, but I want my killing device to be the best that I can get it. I want as many of the odds to be in favor as I can get them. I can also compare that point to the discussions on wind and odor reduction. I want to play all of the odds.

My policy is that quartering-to shots are off limits. I want broadside, or quartering away...period. Once again, I'm playing the odds. But since you mentioned quartering-to, remember that those shots have a greater degree of having the broadhead deflect on the heavy shoulder bone and expandable heads are more prone to deflection on bone. Even on steep downward shots, a broadhead can deflect on ribs. The wider the head the more prone to deflect on bone. A COC, tanto head is less prone to deflection. That is a fact.

And again...Deer often move while the arrow is in the air. Regardless of the reason (bow noise, seeing the arrow, or just a coincidence) the target we aimed for is not always in the same position when the projectile arrives. It even happens to gun hunters as they are squeezing the trigger. For whatever the reason, the critter sometimes moves and we don't hit where we intended to. Those are the reasons why there really is no such thing as "overkill" when we build deer arrows.

 

[Nosaj]

The noise issue is also an interesting, I've seen/heard guys talk about it's more the arrow noise that causes a deer to drop. They have video of deer the same distance from the shooter, but off to the side 20-30 yards, that don't react to the shot noise. Compared to the targeted deer that drops when the arrow is headed their way.

I definitely believe that they hear the arrow more than they hear the string. I had my son shooting his 26" draw 40 lb bow (not very fast) from the deck behind the house at a target. I was standing at the end of the house so the arrow would pass a couple yards in front of me on its way to the target. I could not believe how loud the arrow was as it was passing by. I could not hear the bow/string noise at the shot the house was blocking the noise however I could hear the arrow while the house was still blocking it, then I could really hear it as it passed.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I definitely believe that they hear the arrow more than they hear the string. I had my son shooting his 26" draw 40 lb bow (not very fast) from the deck behind the house at a target. I was standing at the end of the house so the arrow would pass a couple yards in front of me on its way to the target. I could not believe how loud the arrow was as it was passing by. I could not hear the bow/string noise at the shot the house was blocking the noise however I could hear the arrow while the house was still blocking it, then I could really hear it as it passed.

Arrow noise is definitely a factor. For years, I shot 5" helical feathers with an extreme off-set. I wasn't needing to take a lot of time to tune the arrows because all that fletch made the arrows fly pretty good. But when we got into the heavy arrow, high FOC build, we decided to go A&A fletch to help maximize FOC. It's surprising how much more quiet the entire shot process is. The bow is quieter, and the arrows in flight are definitely quieter. It all goes to the concept of a total arrow build. It all counts towards making the arrow the best it can be.

 

[Plebe]

I don't feel like we are that far off on what we think. I just don't think anyone has the proof that expandables are as terrible as the heavy arrow folks say they are if shot out of a well tuned bow with a 400-500 grain arrow.
Heavy arrows come with their own set of issues. Also people shouldn't just aim for the shoulder on a quartering too shot just cuz they are following the ranch fairy. As with most of these "movements", the leader is usually more in the middle and reasonable than the followers.

Ashby digs expandables. His #4 factor is the mechanical advantage. lol.

"4. Mechanical Advantage
Mechanical Advantage (MA) of the broadhead ranks as number four."