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Is Ashby's #1 goal flawed?

Ashby's finding are nothing more than physics and while they are true,the balance a hunter is looking for,especially when it comes to deer can differ and not offer a concrete answer on what's best.What i won't argue with is the desire to have a complete passthrough every time.That's not even debatable in my experience.You want to two holes.Do you need a 650gr arrow with a single bevel to kill deer?Absolutely not.If I were hunting pigs over a feeder or dangerous game,I'd probably go that route but since I hunt deer,I want a compromise between quiet,a flat enough trajectyory and achieving full penetration every time with a BH that's razor sharp and doesn't fall apart.Finding that combination is almost limitless.

I also don't believe that blood on the ground is the end all be all and it's more of a function of where the deer was hit,rather than what it was hit with..If you shoot a quiet bow with a quality fixed head at unalert deer,you should see the vast,vast majority stop,wobble and drop over.At the very least you should hear them crash.If you don't,you didn't hit the deer in both lungs and you need to back out and wait a min of 12 hours and not even check your arrow.If you do that,the vast majority of marginal hits that are actually fatal should be found without needing a blood trail.
 
Ashby's finding are nothing more than physics and while they are true,the balance a hunter is looking for,especially when it comes to deer can differ and not offer a concrete answer on what's best.What i won't argue with is the desire to have a complete passthrough every time.That's not even debatable in my experience.You want to two holes.Do you need a 650gr arrow with a single bevel to kill deer?Absolutely not.If I were hunting pigs over a feeder or dangerous game,I'd probably go that route but since I hunt deer,I want a compromise between quiet,a flat enough trajectyory and achieving full penetration every time with a BH that's razor sharp and doesn't fall apart.Finding that combination is almost limitless.

I also don't believe that blood on the ground is the end all be all and it's more of a function of where the deer was hit,rather than what it was hit with..If you shoot a quiet bow with a quality fixed head at unalert deer,you should see the vast,vast majority stop,wobble and drop over.At the very least you should hear them crash.If you don't,you didn't hit the deer in both lungs and you need to back out and wait a min of 12 hours and not even check your arrow.If you do that,the vast majority of marginal hits that are actually fatal should be found without needing a blood trail.

Mostly I agree. But...

This year my dad arrowed a buck around 8:30am. He texted me, unsure of the hit. His description of what he thought happened sounded positive, but he never saw or heard the buck fall. After two hours, I carefully made my way to his stand and inspected the site of the shot. Dad was pretty on edge, but I found his arrow right where he said the deer was when he shot. It was covered with blood, and there began an ample blood trail.

After only about 10 yards, I saw the buck laying on the ground, clearly expired, less than 40 yds away from the tree my dad was in. My dad sees the deer and says to me, "wait here." He goes and climbs back up the tree, then climbs back down. When he reaches me, he says, "Nice shot, huh, died within sight of the stand." I bust out laughing and we got the deer out and enjoyed the rest of the day butchering the deer and a few beers.

Sometimes you just don't hear or see them drop, when you'd think you would, for whatever reason. lol.
 
These Ashby posts will never die lol…

Your arrow isn't stopping the bleeding, and here's why:

A deer's blood has an amazing coagulation ability (blood clotting). Hit the top of the lung and some muscle, and you may never get that deer (as most of us know) because that wound can clot very quickly to stop bleeding. Deer supposedly will even lay down on wounds to speed up the blood vessels clotting at the wound.

So, in theory, if you have an arrow lodged in a deer instead of passing through, it may act as a 'plug' or apply pressure and prevent rapid blood loss. But this doesn't happen; the cutting diameter is larger than your arrow diameter (or at least it should be).

Ever cut yourself with a sharp knife? Did the wound swell? No, it didn't. The blood vessels would have contracted; then your blood would have released special proteins that actually weave together to form a clot and seal the wound.

If you shoot a deer and hit it in the rib or shoulder and it doesn't penetrate, then you likely didn't cut or puncture the lung. The blood you find is likely from muscle that didn't have any major arteries to cut, so the deer was able to run off long enough to allow the wound to clot and stop bleeding. But the arrow wasn't 'plugging the hole.'

A pass-through of both lungs is obviously a better result than no pass-through. But it has more to do with a second whole lung being able to supply the brain with oxygen long enough for either the blood to clot or for the deer to run farther before dying (not your arrow stopping the bleeding).
 
These Ashby posts will never die lol…

Your arrow isn't stopping the bleeding, and here's why:

A deer's blood has an amazing coagulation ability (blood clotting). Hit the top of the lung and some muscle, and you may never get that deer (as most of us know) because that wound can clot very quickly to stop bleeding. Deer supposedly will even lay down on wounds to speed up the blood vessels clotting at the wound.

So, in theory, if you have an arrow lodged in a deer instead of passing through, it may act as a 'plug' or apply pressure and prevent rapid blood loss. But this doesn't happen; the cutting diameter is larger than your arrow diameter (or at least it should be).

Ever cut yourself with a sharp knife? Did the wound swell? No, it didn't. The blood vessels would have contracted; then your blood would have released special proteins that actually weave together to form a clot and seal the wound.

If you shoot a deer and hit it in the rib or shoulder and it doesn't penetrate, then you likely didn't cut or puncture the lung. The blood you find is likely from muscle that didn't have any major arteries to cut, so the deer was able to run off long enough to allow the wound to clot and stop bleeding. But the arrow wasn't 'plugging the hole.'

A pass-through of both lungs is obviously a better result than no pass-through. But it has more to do with a second whole lung being able to supply the brain with oxygen long enough for either the blood to clot or for the deer to run farther before dying (not your arrow stopping the bleeding).
Do me a favor, take 2 jugs of water. Poke one hole in one jug and poke 2 holes in the second. Tell us what happens...
I'm putting my money on the second to drain faster because of the change in pressure... now imagine if you left your "poker device" in the first one.
I know, a very oversimplification considering water won't be able to compress on anything inside the jug
..
 
I'll do that
Do me a favor, take 2 jugs of water. Poke one hole in one jug and poke 2 holes in the second. Tell us what happens...
I'm putting my money on the second to drain faster because of the change in pressure... now imagine if you left your "poker device" in the first one.
I know, a very oversimplification considering water won't be able to compress on anything inside the jug
..

I'll do your test, but with a broadhead. I agreed you will loose more blood from a pass through - that's an obvious fact. But your arrow isn't going to plug your hole.
 
I'll do that


I'll do your test, but with a broadhead. I agreed you will loose more blood from a pass through - that's an obvious fact. But your arrow isn't going to plug your hole.
Yes it will, soft tissue will compress around the arrow. With your theory, if you shot a block of ballistic gel you'd leave a hole punch where the broadhead/arrow impacted.
 
I'll do that


I'll do your test, but with a broadhead. I agreed you will loose more blood from a pass through - that's an obvious fact. But your arrow isn't going to plug your hole.
I wish this forum had that animated emogee with the guy hitting himself on the head with a hammer, cause that's what it feels like trying to convey facts.
The arrow does not completely clog the hole, but it does reduce blood flow to a certain extent. To what extent is difficult to quantify but the fact (yes it's a medical fact) is that a wound will bleed better without the arrow remaining in the wound.

And yes, as said earlier, if the hit is a solid double lung wound then the deer will most likely die within sight and no blood trail would be needed.
But what happens when we don't get that double lung? What happens when we aren't even certain where the arrow went? What happens when we do get a fatal wound but the deer goes a longer distance (like a liver hit)? And what happens when we do need to depend on a blood trail (light rain or windy conditions blowing leaves, or through high grassy cover)?
What hunter in their right mind does not value a good blood trail?
 
Mostly I agree. But...

This year my dad arrowed a buck around 8:30am. He texted me, unsure of the hit. His description of what he thought happened sounded positive, but he never saw or heard the buck fall. After two hours, I carefully made my way to his stand and inspected the site of the shot. Dad was pretty on edge, but I found his arrow right where he said the deer was when he shot. It was covered with blood, and there began an ample blood trail.

After only about 10 yards, I saw the buck laying on the ground, clearly expired, less than 40 yds away from the tree my dad was in. My dad sees the deer and says to me, "wait here." He goes and climbs back up the tree, then climbs back down. When he reaches me, he says, "Nice shot, huh, died within sight of the stand." I bust out laughing and we got the deer out and enjoyed the rest of the day butchering the deer and a few beers.

Sometimes you just don't hear or see them drop, when you'd think you would, for whatever reason. lol.
I don't know.I've never not seen or not heard a deer drop that was hit in both lungs or the heart.I shot a buck this past year than ran probably 75 yards,stopped,stood there for a minute and then walked off.I clearly saw the arrow hit too far back and based on the deer's reaction,knew exactly what happened,even if I hadn't seen the impact.I climbed down,went the opposite direction and found the buck at daylight about 50 yards from where I last saw it.
 
Shane Simpson posted the results of his blood trailing dog on the Hunting Beast a while back.

-Recovery rates for all pass through shots was 59%
-Recovery rates for all non-pass through shots was 21%

He actually goes into a lot more detail with the mechanical vs fixed, but I feel like those two stats tell you all you need to know.
 
I don't know.I've never not seen or not heard a deer drop that was hit in both lungs or the heart.I shot a buck this past year than ran probably 75 yards,stopped,stood there for a minute and then walked off.I clearly saw the arrow hit too far back and based on the deer's reaction,knew exactly what happened,even if I hadn't seen the impact.I climbed down,went the opposite direction and found the buck at daylight about 50 yards from where I last saw it.

lol. When you're old enough, it'll make more sense.
 
I don't know.I've never not seen or not heard a deer drop that was hit in both lungs or the heart.I shot a buck this past year than ran probably 75 yards,stopped,stood there for a minute and then walked off.I clearly saw the arrow hit too far back and based on the deer's reaction,knew exactly what happened,even if I hadn't seen the impact.I climbed down,went the opposite direction and found the buck at daylight about 50 yards from where I last saw it.

Generally, I feel the same way. I've posted similar sentiments on "where's my deer?" or "where did i hit them?" threads where the poster swears they 12 ringed the deer.

However, The further towards the rear of the deer you hit, the longer it will live - unless of course you sever the dorsal aorta or the spine. I have yet to see a deer that was truly double lunged, and by double lunged I mean center of the largest portion of the lungs, or hit in front of that, but behind the leg bone, go further than 200 yards. I know of no deer that has done it either.

You get into a gray area here. Which is why I emphasize aiming further forward. Maybe a better way of saying it, "If you hit the deer broadside on the front 60% of the volume of the lungs, the deer will go down within seconds."
 
Generally, I feel the same way. I've posted similar sentiments on "where's my deer?" or "where did i hit them?" threads where the poster swears they 12 ringed the deer.

However, The further towards the rear of the deer you hit, the longer it will live - unless of course you sever the dorsal aorta or the spine. I have yet to see a deer that was truly double lunged, and by double lunged I mean center of the largest portion of the lungs, or hit in front of that, but behind the leg bone, go further than 200 yards. I know of no deer that has done it either.

You get into a gray area here. Which is why I emphasize aiming further forward. Maybe a better way of saying it, "If you hit the deer broadside on the front 60% of the volume of the lungs, the deer will go down within seconds."
In certain types of cover, 200 yards can be a monumental task. A grid search in CRP, after dark can be almost impossible.
I want a blood trail regardless of the shot location.
 
Generally, I feel the same way. I've posted similar sentiments on "where's my deer?" or "where did i hit them?" threads where the poster swears they 12 ringed the deer.

However, The further towards the rear of the deer you hit, the longer it will live - unless of course you sever the dorsal aorta or the spine. I have yet to see a deer that was truly double lunged, and by double lunged I mean center of the largest portion of the lungs, or hit in front of that, but behind the leg bone, go further than 200 yards. I know of no deer that has done it either.

You get into a gray area here. Which is why I emphasize aiming further forward. Maybe a better way of saying it, "If you hit the deer broadside on the front 60% of the volume of the lungs, the deer will go down within seconds."
I've never seen a doubled lunged deer go 100 yards let,alone 200 yards.I've seen deer hit in one lung go that far however.
 
I've never seen a doubled lunged deer go 100 yards let,alone 200 yards.I've seen deer hit in one lung go that far however.
Double lung shot deer can take 7 to 10 seconds to fall. A deer running at full speed and basically dead on their feet, can easily cover 300 yards in 10 seconds. In heavy cover (CRP) a hunter can walk within a couple yards of a dead deer, in the daylight, and not see it laying there. Sometimes a blood trail is the only way we will find the critter before dark and lose it to coyotes or spoilage.

Which is another attribute to 2 blade COC heads. Deer tend to panic less after being shot with such heads and exit wounds are more common resulting in better blood trails.
 
Which is another attribute to 2 blade COC heads. Deer tend to panic less after being shot with such heads and exit wounds are more common resulting in better blood trails.

That I agree with.However,I've been on hand when several hundred deer have been killed and have recovered several hundred more.I've never seen a doubled lunged deer make it 100 yards.The furthest I've ever seen a deer run after being hit through both lungs was a big doe I shot a few years ago with a .308.Despite the fist sized exit wound and liquified lungs,she managed to run close to 100 yards downhill.I've never needed a blood trail to find a double lunged deer.
 
Which is another attribute to 2 blade COC heads. Deer tend to panic less after being shot with such heads and exit wounds are more common resulting in better blood trails.

That I agree with.However,I've been on hand when several hundred deer have been killed and have recovered several hundred more.I've never seen a doubled lunged deer make it 100 yards.The furthest I've ever seen a deer run after being hit through both lungs was a big doe I shot a few years ago with a .308.Despite the fist sized exit wound and liquified lungs,she managed to run close to 100 yards downhill.I've never needed a blood trail to find a double lunged deer.

I've had double lunged deer run around 100 yards on several occasions (confirmed by shot placement and autopsy). I also don't hear deer fall or hear the arrow strike the deer. This could be the slight adrenaline surge/dump at and after the shot. I doubt I'm alone in this. If you are in a heavily wooded/brushy area in early season when vegetation is still green, then having a blood trail can be important. My last buck was shot quartering away and the arrow went back of on side lung and out right above heart and right over off side leg. He went around 100 yards and I was glad to find blood because it was thick in there and I lost sight of him after around 40 yards and didn't hear him fall.
 
Double lung shot deer can take 7 to 10 seconds to fall. A deer running at full speed and basically dead on their feet, can easily cover 300 yards in 10 seconds. In heavy cover (CRP) a hunter can walk within a couple yards of a dead deer, in the daylight, and not see it laying there. Sometimes a blood trail is the only way we will find the critter before dark and lose it to coyotes or spoilage.

Which is another attribute to 2 blade COC heads. Deer tend to panic less after being shot with such heads and exit wounds are more common resulting in better blood trails.
I'm sorry but there's not a deer alive that's going to run 90 fps or 60 miles per hour healthy, let alone after a double lung shot.
 
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