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Is the High FOC IDEA good or bad for the hunting community?

gcr0003

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Don't fix what isn't broken. If you're hitting and killing deer rock on.


And on the flip side of the coin faster arrows and bigger broadheads definitely encourage some bronies to get sloppy with respecting their max effective range and shot placement particulars because they're "shooting flat out to 50 yards and practically cutting that deer in half, may'un!"

Stupid will be stupid. Somebody has to live on the wrong end of the bell curve.
True
 

boyne bowhunter

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To be honest @MattMan81 my experience was similar to what you described. I hunted with expandables from a 70# bow for probably decades and killed a lot of deer with them. I never tuned my bow because there wasn't a need, the expandable hit exactly where the field point did so it must be good right? I did find it strange though that I can't remember a single instance where I achieved a complete pass through where the arrow was sticking in the ground after the shot.

Originally, long before I had ever heard of Ashby or the RF, I attributed it to the fact that I was shooting ultralight arrows and they just didn't carry enough momentum to pass through. My solution . . . heavier arrows tipped with the same expandables, still no tuning. Lo and behold I had the same results with those.

Next step, a switch to three blade, fixed blade broadheads. I suddenly found that my broadheads didn't hit in the same spot as my field points. I had to tune my bow to make them work. Suddenly the same bow I've been shooting for years is pushing my arrows clean through my target block. Wow, that block went quick . . . turns out that my arrows had been unknowingly loosing energy realigning on impact all along.

Since learning more of the Ashby and RF theories I have taken things a step further and made the change to heavier single bevel broadheads moving my FOC from ~7% to ~18%. I have yet to shoot anything with this combination but I certainly can't wait to try it out. I'm anticipating pulling arrows from teh ground rather than finding them somewhere along the track line.

Maybe I'm drinking the koolaid, I won't know until the time comes, but it doesn't matter since I already know I'm shooting a better setup with my bow properly tuned.
 
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MattMan81

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To be honest @MattMan81 my experience was similar to what you described. I hunted with expandables for probably decades and killed a lot of deer with them. I never tuned my bow because there wasn't a need, the expandable hit exactly where the field point did so it must be good right? I did find it strange though that I can't remember a single instance where I achieved a complete pass through where the arrow was sticking in the ground after the shot.

Originally, long before I had ever heard of Ashby or the RF, I attributed it to the fact that I was shooting ultralight arrows and they just didn't carry enough momentum to pass through. My solution . . . heavier arrows tipped with the same expandables, still no tuning. Lo and behold I had the same results with those.

Next step, a switch to three blade, fixed blade broadheads. I suddenly found that my broadheads didn't hit in the same spot as my field points. I had to tune my bow to make them work. Suddenly the same bow I've been shooting for years is pushing my arrows clean through my target block. Wow, that block went quick . . . turns out that my arrows had been unknowingly loosing energy realigning on impact all along.

Since learning more of the Ashby and RF theories I have taken things a step further and made the change to heavier single bevel broadheads moving my FOC from ~7% to ~18%. I have yet to shoot anything with this combination but I certainly can't wait to try it out. I'm anticipating pulling arrows from teh ground rather than finding them somewhere along the track line.

Maybe I'm drinking the koolaid, I won't know until the time comes, but it doesn't matter since I already know I'm shooting a better setup with my bow properly tuned.
I'm gonna say if I took my old bow/arrow set up and bare shaft tuned, I would have not been punching holes either. I replaced the string and jumped into it all head first. I guzzled the Kool aid. I know I made a lot of mistakes. Ultimately shooting a super heavy arrow compensated for a lot of my issues that had not been addressed all the way. In hind sight I wish I would have checked it before I changed anything. I would have taken a lot of the headache out. But that's the way I learn best. By frustrating the heck out of my self.
 

Allegheny Tom

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How could the heavy arrow/ high foc concept NOT be good for bowhunting?
Ranch Fairy seems to be who most guys initially refer to in these discussions but when it comes down to it, this is an ASHBY thing. We need to keep in mind who Dr Ed Ashby is, his high level of education which is directly relative to this subject of arrow lethality, his extensive backround in African bowhunting, his meticulous record keeping, and his selfless desire to determine the most lethal arrow build possible.
Yes there are marketeers out there that try to profit off of whichever way the wind is currently blowing, but that is definitely not where the heavy, high foc movement began and still continues today.
The Ashby Bowhunting Foundation is non profit. Their sole mission is to study arrow lethality. They have zeroed in towards heavy arrow/ high foc noy because they CHOSE to be that way, they are there because that's where the science, testing, and results have taken them. If light, fast, expandibles, offered superior lethality, then that's what they would be advocating.
EFOC and heavy arrows, 3:1 single bevel heads, when tuned properly, have been quantified and proven to produce more RECOVERED game than game shot with low foc, light arrow, expandable arrow rigs.
It's not anecdotal. It's been proven science by Ashby.
Any rig that produces a higher rate of recovery IS a good thing for bowhunting.
 

Hall17

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You might want to check it. 30% is difficult at achieve. 40% is about impossible.
19% - 29% is considered efoc.
40 would be off the charts.
Yep I was WAY off. I care about FOC so much I didn’t even know how to figure it out until I googled it. Not 40% but actually 10.9%

the last few deer i shot the arrow was sticking in the ground where I shot that deer. Probably because I shoot 70# maybe? Who knows but I get pass thrus every time so far
 

MattMan81

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Yep I was WAY off. I care about FOC so much I didn’t even know how to figure it out until I googled it. Not 40% but actually 10.9%

the last few deer i shot the arrow was sticking in the ground where I shot that deer. Probably because I shoot 70# maybe? Who knows but I get pass thrus every time so far
Just to compare and reference, how much time would you say spent in dialing in your system? Or were you able to pull it off the shelf and stick em?
Lots? Just some? Or little?
 

Hall17

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Just to compare and reference, how much time would you say spent in dialing in your system? Or were you able to pull it off the shelf and stick em?
Lots? Just some? Or little?
I think that’s all relative, right? I bought my bow used. When I got it I got it paper tuned. Stuff was off and not correct when I got it that’s for sure. I don’t know what a lot of time tuning a bow is. Since I am shooting a lighter arrow set up with mechanical heads I would say it took less time than someone chasing the heavy set up
 

MattMan81

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I think that’s all relative, right? I bought my bow used. When I got it I got it paper tuned. Stuff was off and not correct when I got it that’s for sure. I don’t know what a lot of time tuning a bow is. Since I am shooting a lighter arrow set up with mechanical heads I would say it took less time than someone chasing the heavy set up
But you paper tuned and found a set up that worked for you. So knowing what your doing and how to correct it speeds things up vs a guy who is doing it all the for the first time.
How did you arrive at ability to tune? How many bows have you tuned before? You obviously didn't need some sarcastic guy in the tube to tell you how. Books? (What are those?) Lol.
I'm asking just trying to figure out how some guys all ready knew all this stuff? I missed that chapter in hunters safety training.
 

Hall17

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But you paper tuned and found a set up that worked for you. So knowing what your doing and how to correct it speeds things up vs a guy who is doing it all the for the first time.
How did you arrive at ability to tune? How many bows have you tuned before? You obviously didn't need some sarcastic guy in the tube to tell you how. Books? (What are those?) Lol.
I'm asking just trying to figure out how some guys all ready knew all this stuff? I missed that chapter in hunters safety training.
We have a REALLY GOOD shop in town. I trust those guys hands down. That’s how I got there haha. I didn’t do anything myself!
 

MattMan81

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We have a REALLY GOOD shop in town. I trust those guys hands down. That’s how I got there haha. I didn’t do anything myself!
Lol. See. That's the difference. If ever archery shop only sent you out the door with a proper tuned bow, recover rates in general would be up. IMO.
First bow I got when I was 12, I can't recall ever shooting it in the archery shop. They slapped some stuff on it and sent us out the door. That was 28years ago. The second one my dad purchased from a friend that ended up having a shorter cable on it, to compensate for the long draw length. I found that out and came home with another new bow when I was early 20s. I never put an arrow threw paper there. Eventually purchased a better bow few years later from that big box store that sells outdoor stuff, and never put an arrow threw paper there either. Guy told me which arrows, slapped some stuff on it, and sent me out the door. But hey, I had a coupon!!! To bad I never spent a few more dollars at a real archery shop. I may have saved some money in the long run.
 

manitoba450es

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Oct 31, 2018
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I think the FOC and arrow weight are a factor but first if you follow Ashby you need #1 a set up that remains intact upon impact and #2 perfect arrow flight. The other 10 come after that.
I'm building a set up to tear through a moose because well.... Ive moose hunted for 15 years. Killed 13 with a rifle and the 1 chance with a bow I did not get the penetration needed to kill the animal.
Deer are a lot easier to push through but I still want to get into the 500+ grains for white tails

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk
 

1simplemann

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Sep 6, 2014
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To be honest @MattMan81 my experience was similar to what you described. I hunted with expandables from a 70# bow for probably decades and killed a lot of deer with them. I never tuned my bow because there wasn't a need, the expandable hit exactly where the field point did so it must be good right? I did find it strange though that I can't remember a single instance where I achieved a complete pass through where the arrow was sticking in the ground after the shot.

Originally, long before I had ever heard of Ashby or the RF, I attributed it to the fact that I was shooting ultralight arrows and they just didn't carry enough momentum to pass through. My solution . . . heavier arrows tipped with the same expandables, still no tuning. Lo and behold I had the same results with those.

Next step, a switch to three blade, fixed blade broadheads. I suddenly found that my broadheads didn't hit in the same spot as my field points. I had to tune my bow to make them work. Suddenly the same bow I've been shooting for years is pushing my arrows clean through my target block. Wow, that block went quick . . . turns out that my arrows had been unknowingly loosing energy realigning on impact all along.

Since learning more of the Ashby and RF theories I have taken things a step further and made the change to heavier single bevel broadheads moving my FOC from ~7% to ~18%. I have yet to shoot anything with this combination but I certainly can't wait to try it out. I'm anticipating pulling arrows from teh ground rather than finding them somewhere along the track line.

Maybe I'm drinking the koolaid, I won't know until the time comes, but it doesn't matter since I already know I'm shooting a better setup with my bow properly tuned.
BB,
Your gonna like your set up. It will perform. I went down the Ashby rabbit hole 10 years ago. I'm glad I did. Penetration is not a problem w/ a 70lb bow 29" draw length and a good quality 2 blade. (Personally I use a
Strickland Helix) Also a properly tuned bow is also critical. Bones break and stuff dies!
 

GCTerpfan

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How could the heavy arrow/ high foc concept NOT be good for bowhunting?
Ranch Fairy seems to be who most guys initially refer to in these discussions but when it comes down to it, this is an ASHBY thing. We need to keep in mind who Dr Ed Ashby is, his high level of education which is directly relative to this subject of arrow lethality, his extensive backround in African bowhunting, his meticulous record keeping, and his selfless desire to determine the most lethal arrow build possible.
Yes there are marketeers out there that try to profit off of whichever way the wind is currently blowing, but that is definitely not where the heavy, high foc movement began and still continues today.
The Ashby Bowhunting Foundation is non profit. Their sole mission is to study arrow lethality. They have zeroed in towards heavy arrow/ high foc noy because they CHOSE to be that way, they are there because that's where the science, testing, and results have taken them. If light, fast, expandibles, offered superior lethality, then that's what they would be advocating.
EFOC and heavy arrows, 3:1 single bevel heads, when tuned properly, have been quantified and proven to produce more RECOVERED game than game shot with low foc, light arrow, expandable arrow rigs.
It's not anecdotal. It's been proven science by Ashby.
Any rig that produces a higher rate of recovery IS a good thing for bowhunting.
I always cringe when I see people reference FOC, heavy arrows and bow tuning like they are Ranch Fairy's original ideas.. I am forty years old and some of my fist memories are my dad paper tuning his and all of his friends compound bows over 30 years ago. By the time I was old enough to shoot a bow we were shooting recurves and the penetration benefits of heavy arrows was common knowledge in the Trad community. Monty Browning has been shooting 1400 gr arrows at everything from rhinos to moose, to elk for over 40 years. Ashby has been studying the topic for decades and the benefits of FOC in arrow flight are proven in his studies and are also common principles in aeronautics. But, even Ashby still focuses on total arrow weight and says "a person should shoot the heaviest arrow that they are comfortable with the trajectory". I really don't understand how people can disagree with that statement. It's the heaviest arrow you are comfortable with, if you're not comfortable with the trajectory shoot a lighter arrow.

The only difference today is an abnoxious YouTube personality has some how made this entire topic devisive.
 
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Zero One Actual

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I always cringe when I see people reference FOC, heavy arrows and bow tuning like Ranch Fairy discovered the benefits. I am forty years old and some of my fist memories are my dad paper tuning his and all of his friends compound bows over 30 years ago. By the time I was old enough to shoot a bow we were shooting recurves and the penetration benefits of heavy arrows was common knowledge in the Trad community. Monty Browning has been shooting 1400 gr arrows at everything from rhinos to moose, to elk for over 40 years. Ashby has been studying the topic for decades and the benefits of FOC in arrow flight are proven in his studies and are also common principles in aeronautics. But, even Ashby still focuses on total arrow weight and says "a person should shoot the heaviest arrow that they are comfortable with the trajectory". I really don't understand how people can disagree with that statement.

The only difference today is an abnoxious YouTube personality has some how made this entire topic devisive.
I’m sure many of you reading this thread can remember the great bullet debate between the 45 and 9mm. 45 has more stopping power but is slower. You can carry more 9mm in the mag. Etc etc. whatever the argument was/is. This is the same argument just in the archery community. Ballistic gel tests by federal agencies and special mission units aside as well as science. Nobody will ever agree with the numbers even when the science is clearly showing the actual truth.
 

FrankNess14

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Overall good for the community, yes when discussed like adults…anything that triggers discussion and learning is beneficial. Plus if it leads to more ethical kills and less Bambi’s running around with an arrow sticking out for Karens to see, that’s a plus too.

However, that’s a double edged sword when folks plant their flag and die on that hill via the internet….and over stupid stuff. If it works for you great. Paddle your own canoe. Logic only works when emotion is removed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

MattMan81

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Overall good for the community, yes when discussed like adults…anything that triggers discussion and learning is beneficial. Plus if it leads to more ethical kills and less Bambi’s running around with an arrow sticking out for Karens to see, that’s a plus too.

However, that’s a double edged sword when folks plant their flag and die on that hill via the internet….and over stupid stuff. If it works for you great. Paddle your own canoe. Logic only works when emotion is removed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I think that's where a lot of the salty taste for a fairy guy came from. It wasen't the message, but the envelope it came it. His sarcastic presentation made a lot of noise, and got people fired up. Which may have helped fuel more people watching and trying it. But there was some light punches thrown. Marketing genius? Crazy texan? Or someone trying to make a point? Who knows.
 

CooterBrown

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So I've been shooting my bow that I have had for years with field points but when i put fixed 3 blade muzzy 100g on there they all fly different. I paper tuned my bow a few years ago when i put a new Qad drop away on. Im shooting Bloodsport punisher arrows with a bowtec tribute at 62lbs 26.5 draw. Any ideas whats wrong?
 

Weldabeast

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So I've been shooting my bow that I have had for years with field points but when i put fixed 3 blade muzzy 100g on there they all fly different. I paper tuned my bow a few years ago when i put a new Qad drop away on. Im shooting Bloodsport punisher arrows with a bowtec tribute at 62lbs 26.5 draw. Any ideas whats wrong?
Have u tried shooting 1 of ur arrows without fletchings and seen how it flys
 

CooterBrown

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Have u tried shooting 1 of ur arrows without fletchings and seen how it flys
No that i have never done. Is that better than paper tuning? And i probably need to recheck my paper tuning just to make sure
its still shooting correct.
 
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