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Leg straps on saddles......

Can't bring myself to cut them off, but I don't like them. Climbing and descending trees with screw in steps or climbing sticks they sometimes snag on a step which is a pain. Once sitting they don't bother me but I also don't find them of any use.
 
NATHAN said:
I will keep mine on. We are already accepting a lot of risk with what we do.
Click to expand...

I disagree the most risk I accept is the drive to the location, you might have perceived risk but as long as your using your gear appropriately climbing isn't that hazardous (some methods more than others). It's when you cut corners (or things off your harness ;) ) or get complicate or cocky that it becomes dangerous. Many many people climb passed the 48ft (~4 stories, ~50% chance of fatality if fall occurs) everyday for work, and many of those passed 7 stories or ~75ft where 90% chance of death. Now yes the more things you do that have a higher risk the higher you overall risk.

From the CDC:
Unintentional fall deaths
  • Number of deaths: 37,455
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.4
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
  • Number of deaths: 37,991
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.6
Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2018) via CDC WONDER


Of course not as many people climbing as driving cars as climbing things but many of these falls are not in situations where people commonly wear fall prevention gear (hindsight is 20/20).

OSHA shines more light on work related fatalities were people are expected to be doing the right thing, at least by OSHA.

4180 deaths with the keyword filter fall between 2017-2020 still not all of these are falls, as "worker killed by falling tree", "killed by falling object", and someone "falling out of their chair" still makes the filter, i guess that last one counts.
https://www.osha.gov/fatalities

Point is if you climb and use your fall protection it is pretty safe.
 
rabidd099 said:
I disagree the most risk I accept is the drive to the location, you might have perceived risk but as long as your using your gear appropriately climbing isn't that hazardous (some methods more than others). It's when you cut corners (or things off your harness ;) ) or get complicate or cocky that it becomes dangerous. Many many people climb passed the 48ft (~4 stories, ~50% chance of fatality if fall occurs) everyday for work, and many of those passed 7 stories or ~75ft where 90% chance of death. Now yes the more things you do that have a higher risk the higher you overall risk.

From the CDC:
Unintentional fall deaths
  • Number of deaths: 37,455
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.4
Motor vehicle traffic deaths
  • Number of deaths: 37,991
  • Deaths per 100,000 population: 11.6
Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality data (2018) via CDC WONDER


Of course not as many people climbing as driving cars as climbing things but many of these falls are not in situations where people commonly wear fall prevention gear (hindsight is 20/20).

OSHA shines more light on work related fatalities were people are expected to be doing the right thing, at least by OSHA.

4180 deaths with the keyword filter fall between 2017-2020 still not all of these are falls, as "worker killed by falling tree", "killed by falling object", and someone "falling out of their chair" still makes the filter, i guess that last one counts.
https://www.osha.gov/fatalities

Point is if you climb and use your fall protection it is pretty safe.
Click to expand...
A better way to look at those stats is bout 1 death per 100 million miles driven.

And 1000% those are NOT the examples to point toward for fall hazards. The solution is not as simple as "use your protection", and this is really important!

There are 2-3 key reasons for this:
  • Workplace fall protection protocols almost always include multiple individuals present to provide "rescue"
  • Most workplaces are more highly controlled than a tree in the woods
  • Very few saddle hunters are carrying/using "fall protection"
Looking specifically to Arborists and rock climbing is a more appropriate comparison. Arborists apparently are around 40 deaths/100k (per https://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/article-on-americas-most-dangerous-jobs.3032/ ). Rock climbing is approximately as safe as you make it.

Almost everyone is relying on relatively short lengths of static rope, with no shock absorption, in saddle/waist-belt type of setup. If not very diligent regarding the risks and limitations associated with these devices, it is exceptionally easy to put yourself in position for a backbreaking fall while "using your protection".

The message needs to be more about using your equipment correctly and with the proper expectations. What you can and can't expect from a lineman's belt. What it takes to keep forces within an acceptable range when connected at the waist with static lines.

"Use your protection" as advice is just an invitation for people to misuse equipment and get overconfident. We're not in an environment where we can just clip in and be done with it.
 
I have owned most saddles made and I never cut my leg straps off. They never bothered me at all.
 
mattsteg said:
A better way to look at those stats is bout 1 death per 100 million miles driven.

And 1000% those are NOT the examples to point toward for fall hazards. The solution is not as simple as "use your protection", and this is really important!

There are 2-3 key reasons for this:
  • Workplace fall protection protocols almost always include multiple individuals present to provide "rescue"
  • Most workplaces are more highly controlled than a tree in the woods
  • Very few saddle hunters are carrying/using "fall protection"
Looking specifically to Arborists and rock climbing is a more appropriate comparison. Arborists apparently are around 40 deaths/100k (per https://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/article-on-americas-most-dangerous-jobs.3032/ ). Rock climbing is approximately as safe as you make it.

Almost everyone is relying on relatively short lengths of static rope, with no shock absorption, in saddle/waist-belt type of setup. If not very diligent regarding the risks and limitations associated with these devices, it is exceptionally easy to put yourself in position for a backbreaking fall while "using your protection".

The message needs to be more about using your equipment correctly and with the proper expectations. What you can and can't expect from a lineman's belt. What it takes to keep forces within an acceptable range when connected at the waist with static lines.

"Use your protection" as advice is just an invitation for people to misuse equipment and get overconfident. We're not in an environment where we can just clip in and be done with it.
Click to expand...

I agree, but I said use your climbing gear appropriately, which includes use your protection but you must also have the knowledge to understand how it is intended to be used and it's limitations to use it appropriately.

Yes it isn't workplace/industry standard "fall protection" but that fall protection often will leave you hanging from behind your back with a shock absorbing device which will require rescue as self-rescue is difficult from that position. IF you used your saddle gear approprately self rescue shouldn't be too difficult unless you sustained further injury (which begins to point to user error and failure to mitigate some sort of likely foreseeable risk, but not always).

And yes comparing ALL unintentional falls as safer than driving makes sense as unintentional falls from a tree while hunting is included in that number as it is CDC stats from hospitals not OSHA, and obviously most of those falls aren't hunters but it is still safer and while driving is general perceived as an everyday acceptable hazard for the most mundane reasons all unintentional falls is still appropriate given that there just isn't that much collective hard data on tree falls except by OSHA.

The data you pointed to has the same drawbacks as mine, yes logging is one of the most dangerous jobs and those deaths include falling from trees however they like mine also inculde trees/limbs falling, chainsaws, chippers, cranes, roll overs on service roads, etc. If you could pull out the data on tree climbers that died just due to the climb and not the sawing and its related hazards that would be the most relevant information of course, even more so would be recreational tree climbing falls.
 
I think people here are overestimating the possiblity that your belt that is sinched tight and with pressure on it is going to go all the way up to your pits. When we first get our saddle we all do the till upside thing and im sure none of our saddles slipped off our legs.
 
Chandler96 said:
I think people here are overestimating the possiblity that your belt that is sinched tight and with pressure on it is going to go all the way up to your pits. When we first get our saddle we all do the till upside thing and im sure none of our saddles slipped off our legs.
Click to expand...
Ya know I've never done that.

Sent from my SM-G981V using Tapatalk
 
Chandler96 said:
I think people here are overestimating the possiblity that your belt that is sinched tight and with pressure on it is going to go all the way up to your pits. When we first get our saddle we all do the till upside thing and im sure none of our saddles slipped off our legs.
Click to expand...

Your hips are wider than your ribs and not compressible and easily broken like ribs. This is why climbing harnesses rely upon the hips to keep their harnesses on. Also, many saddle hunters do not even properly position or tighten their saddles (they speak of loosening them for comfort) and tightening down over 3 layers of clothing obviously makes things much slicker and harder to control.

I think some people are relying upon their beer gut to save them! (referring to people with flat stomachs as twigs, LOL).
 
mattsteg said:
A better way to look at those stats is bout 1 death per 100 million miles driven.

And 1000% those are NOT the examples to point toward for fall hazards. The solution is not as simple as "use your protection", and this is really important!

There are 2-3 key reasons for this:
  • Workplace fall protection protocols almost always include multiple individuals present to provide "rescue"
  • Most workplaces are more highly controlled than a tree in the woods
  • Very few saddle hunters are carrying/using "fall protection"
Looking specifically to Arborists and rock climbing is a more appropriate comparison. Arborists apparently are around 40 deaths/100k (per https://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/article-on-americas-most-dangerous-jobs.3032/ ). Rock climbing is approximately as safe as you make it.

Almost everyone is relying on relatively short lengths of static rope, with no shock absorption, in saddle/waist-belt type of setup. If not very diligent regarding the risks and limitations associated with these devices, it is exceptionally easy to put yourself in position for a backbreaking fall while "using your protection".

The message needs to be more about using your equipment correctly and with the proper expectations. What you can and can't expect from a lineman's belt. What it takes to keep forces within an acceptable range when connected at the waist with static lines.

"Use your protection" as advice is just an invitation for people to misuse equipment and get overconfident. We're not in an environment where we can just clip in and be done with it.
Click to expand...

It doesn't make sense when people point to something that we all know is dangerous in an argument about the dangers related to different decisions within another context. But people do it all the time and think it is a checkmate. So long as there is something more dangerous than the topic of discussion....then what?

"you're worried about your child eating lead paint? Don't you know in some countries there are child soldiers in battle? Now that's the kind of danger you should be concerned about."

I am of course exaggerating the point in order to make this obvious.

Also, we all drive knowing the risks because it increases the quality of our lives so much to drive. Whether or not to wear leg straps on a saddle isn't in the same universe of decisions. In fact, completely giving up hunting would be less impactful than never driving again (how would you even feed yourself in most instances?).
 
mattsteg said:
Nah, we have arms/shoulders.
Click to expand...

I hope you are joking. The old harnesses that just went around the waist (sent out with tree stands and just 2 loops joined with a tether) are now seen as death traps because in a hard fall your ribs can compress/break (much easier than pelvis) and then the tight belt is pulled up over your rib cage which needs to expand to breath. You are then left in this hobbled state, near asphyxiation, and you are expected to self rescue or call for help with your phone. Funny that no one with a lick of sense volunteers to take a decent fall in these circumstances.
 
raisins said:
I hope you are joking. The old harnesses that just went around the waist (sent out with tree stands and just 2 loops joined with a tether) are now seen as death traps because in a hard fall your ribs can compress/break (much easier than pelvis) and then the tight belt is pulled up over your rib cage which needs to expand to breath. You are then left in this hobbled state, near asphyxiation, and you are expected to self rescue or call for help with your phone. Funny that no one with a lick of sense volunteers to take a decent fall in these circumstances.
Click to expand...
None of our equipment is designed to take a fall. I don't think a gut would change that.

To be clear - the only thing your shoulders are protecting against is a long, slow slip through a saddle.
 
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