Lost a ten point

[Plebe]

I think you backstrapped ‘eem. Sounds like the last deer I backstrapped. She’s still alive two years later, as of August.

Particularly likely with that angle bringing the point of aim more forward and how the spine runs in the forward portion of the body.

 

[redsquirrel]

Thanks for the feedback! Yeah I can almost guarantee I didn’t hit where the dot was, that’s just where I aimed. If he dipped far down, maybe high lung like you said, there wasn’t ANY stomach matter and the blood wasn’t super deep red like liver. It was just standard red blood. Two of my blades were up when I found the arrow and one was down. No idea what that means but just an observation. Blood trail was very inconsistent and I waited maybe 30 minutes to get down and look. I didn’t take any pics unfortunately. My first theory was that my blades didn’t fully deploy.

Any white substance on the arrow? Was there hair on the ground around the shot? I am also leaning towards either you hit him low in the brisket or high in the backstrap.

 

[redsquirrel]

I think that a lot of what gets misconstrued in the debate over heavy vs lite arrows is that people assume that when people shoot heavy arrows, they are advocating taking any shot they get. I don't think this is the case. I shoot a heavy (I would argue normal weight arrow for draw weight of bow up until the last few decades) arrow so that when things go wrong, I have the best chance of getting enough penetration through the parts of the animal that are in the way of the vitals I intended to hit, that I recover the animal. It is an insurance policy for when things go sideways. It is not 100%, like most things in life.

I have a different perspective. I don't see heavy arrows as a fad. Quite the opposite. If you look back to pre-compound days and also to trad archery of today, most advocate between 9 to 12 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight. So a 60 pound bow would be well matched with a 540 to 720 grain arrow with that formula. I see "heavy" arrows as a return to normalcy after a couple of decades of chasing bow speed. With the efficiency of modern bows why not use that advantage to move a little more mass toward, and hopefully through the target?

From what I've seen, I think a lot of people are taking a lot of shots they wouldn't otherwise because they are shooting a heavy arrow. Not everyone, but certainly a number of people. I don't really disagree with anything else you said except the fad statement. I think it is a concept that has been hyped up for youtube notoriety over the past few years and will slowly fall back to the middle of the pack. I don't have anything against it, I've just never done the deep dive into it for me.

 

[Bowmanmike]

I think you backstrapped ‘eem. Sounds like the last deer I backstrapped. She’s still alive two years later, as of August.

I don't think backstrap. At that shot angle it is almost impossible to get backstrap and nothing else. I shot a buck a few years ago about 13 yds out and I was close to 20' up. I hit just below the spine and exit was on the opposite side of the sternum,but not by much. In situations like that I would always prefer to hit higher rather than low.

 

[elk yinzer]

That shot placement is a no go for any arrow imo. If you're confident you can punch through, gotta hit right on the shoulder blade. If not, that's not a shot to take. Quarter to is too extreme to sneak one behind.

 

[Timberdonkey_059]

That’s what I don’t know, if I had to guess I’d say full pass through because the blazers were soaked.

If you had a full pass through then a heavier arrow isn't going to do anything different for you... While I don't subscribe to the crazy heavy stuff I don't like light arrows either. Middle ground for me. Same with broadheads, i think there are set ups that fixed is best for, I also see a ton of advantage to a GOOD mechanical and that's what I shoot for Michigan whitetail.

Sounds to me like the hit is not where you thought it was and not much can change the outcome of that either way. Huge bummer and hate for anyone to have to go through it but try to learn what you can, hope the deer survives and move onto the next one!

 

[woodsdog2]

I'm curious as to what your DW and DL are? I've used the NAP Spitfire's with success over the years but I've not hit much bone with them either. I still use them on my crossbow. I shot a buck this year with the 100gr with the crossbow and the blood trail was beyond comprehension. I actually watched the blood pouring out of the buck as it ran. However, that is using a crossbow with a 160lb draw weight, over double what I use for my compound and so I have gone to fixed COC heads over the last three years and a heavier arrow setup. Last year was 532gr. this year is 476. I used to shoot the same setup as you and my TAW was 373gr. I'm old school and would not take a quartering too shot like that. Not criticizing you at all but as an instructor, regardless of the arrow setup people are using, I do not agree with taking quartering to shots whatsoever.

 

[Plebe]

Any white substance on the arrow? Was there hair on the ground around the shot? I am also leaning towards either you hit him low in the brisket or high in the backstrap.

I'd think a low single lung pass through would have produced a better blood trail.

A brisket hit would have left the arrow white and/or mostly clean (and some obvious white hair)

So I'm thinking a high pass through, where the blood soaks the cape and doesn't find its way to the ground as easily.

But it's total speculation on my part on top of no specific expertise.

 

[neonomad]

I can’t find evidence in this discussion that the broadhead or the arrow had anything to do with this and plenty of guys are finding penetration nearly as good sometimes better with light / mid, higher speed setups… search youtube. My bet would be the Spitfires opened up just fine (Spitfires work fine), but that quartered towards is almost always a bad shot to take, either hit the shoulder or go back a bit and miss too much of the vitals to drop em fast. If you did hit that dot deer is very likely to be dead somewhere but will cover ground first, not sure the actual survival rate of single lung glances. Where my broadhead search has landed at present is good flying fixed heads like QAD and Ramcats, I’m sick of keeping big fixed blades tuned and wondering if my treestand shot angle is gonna throw that tune out the window. Shot selection is primary, gear selection is secondary. Who knows tho, he may turn up any minute dead or alive.

 

[SaddleUpPartner!]

I think that a lot of what gets misconstrued in the debate over heavy vs lite arrows is that people assume that when people shoot heavy arrows, they are advocating taking any shot they get. I don't think this is the case. I shoot a heavy (I would argue normal weight arrow for draw weight of bow up until the last few decades) arrow so that when things go wrong, I have the best chance of getting enough penetration through the parts of the animal that are in the way of the vitals I intended to hit, that I recover the animal. It is an insurance policy for when things go sideways. It is not 100%, like most things in life.

I have a different perspective. I don't see heavy arrows as a fad. Quite the opposite. If you look back to pre-compound days and also to trad archery of today, most advocate between 9 to 12 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight. So a 60 pound bow would be well matched with a 540 to 720 grain arrow with that formula. I see "heavy" arrows as a return to normalcy after a couple of decades of chasing bow speed. With the efficiency of modern bows why not use that advantage to move a little more mass toward, and hopefully through the target?

I mean even subconsciously I probably pushed that shot back a little too far at that angle because I didn’t want to risk hitting that shoulder. With a higher FOC arrow I wouldn’t have hesitated shooting a little forward. I’d just rather take the variables of the mechanical off the table. I don’t tune my arrows, I just shoot tight groups and throw a mechanical on there and go hunting. I’ll definitely look into getting some tuned arrows and having that heavy mass up front. My bow is old so I don’t have to worry about speed necessarily. If I’m shooting a good tuned arrow with a 150 grain iron will or Magnus Stinger on there, that’s miles ahead of what I was shooting.

 

[SaddleUpPartner!]

I'm curious as to what your DW and DL are? I've used the NAP Spitfire's with success over the years but I've not hit much bone with them either. I still use them on my crossbow. I shot a buck this year with the 100gr with the crossbow and the blood trail was beyond comprehension. I actually watched the blood pouring out of the buck as it ran. However, that is using a crossbow with a 160lb draw weight, over double what I use for my compound and so I have gone to fixed COC heads over the last three years and a heavier arrow setup. Last year was 532gr. this year is 476. I used to shoot the same setup as you and my TAW was 373gr. I'm old school and would not take a quartering too shot like that. Not criticizing you at all but as an instructor, regardless of the arrow setup people are using, I do not agree with taking quartering to shots whatsoever.

I’m shooting a 65 pound Mathew’s SQ2 with NAP Spitfires. My draw length is about 28 inches give or take 1/2 inch. My current arrows are borderline too short. I’ve had tremendous success with the NAP’s as well, great blood trails in the past. My first buck looked like a slasher movie, second deer was a super solid blood trail. I was expecting the same result for this one, just never found much blood. Every shot has been a complete pass through with arrow covered in blood, same exact thing as the buck. Just no found deer and ****ty blood trail.

 

[SaddleUpPartner!]

I'd think a low single lung pass through would have produced a better blood trail.

A brisket hit would have left the arrow white and/or mostly clean (and some obvious white hair)

So I'm thinking a high pass through, where the blood soaks the cape and doesn't find its way to the ground as easily.

But it's total speculation on my part on top of no specific expertise.

No white hair at all, all brown. If he ducked(they almost always do) I’d bet high.

 

[SaddleUpPartner!]

Any white substance on the arrow? Was there hair on the ground around the shot? I am also leaning towards either you hit him low in the brisket or high in the backstrap.

Sorry responded down below, no white hair at all. Just brown hair.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

From what I've seen, I think a lot of people are taking a lot of shots they wouldn't otherwise because they are shooting a heavy arrow. Not everyone, but certainly a number of people. I don't really disagree with anything else you said except the fad statement. I think it is a concept that has been hyped up for youtube notoriety over the past few years and will slowly fall back to the middle of the pack. I don't have anything against it, I've just never done the deep dive into it for me.

There probably are a few folks taking iffy shots thinking a heavy arrow will work magic but for every one of those there are probably 100 guys making hail Mary shots at 60 to 80 yards on deer with their lite fast arrows because they have a fast flat shooting bow and they can group good at home.

 

[SaddleUpPartner!]

There probably are a few folks taking iffy shots thinking a heavy arrow will work magic but for every one of those there are probably 100 guys making hail Mary shots at 60 to 80 yards on deer with their lite fast arrows because they have a fast flat shooting bow and they can group good at home.

I’ve always shot mechanicals out of ease and had great luck with them…until I didn’t. I had a buddy of mine say “I don’t want mechanicals, too many things to go wrong.” And I always ignored him but then I got thinking after all this, he’s totally correct. I just have to go into the laboratory and do some testing first and really give the heavy arrow thing a chance. Nothing crazy, maybe 150 grain broadheads, 100 grain insert, 300 spine. Get into that 18-19% FOC. I’m not shooting a crazy distance, 30 yards would be my furthest honestly.

 

[kyler1945]

I may be confused, but did we find an arrow and we don’t know if we passed through the deer?

 

[SaddleUpPartner!]

I may be confused, but did we find an arrow and we don’t know if we passed through the deer?

I found the arrow covered in blood, I assume it passed through unless something weird happened and it flew out the same hole it entered. Doubtful though.

 

[NMSbowhunter]

I’ve always shot mechanicals out of ease and had great luck with them…until I didn’t. I had a buddy of mine say “I don’t want mechanicals, too many things to go wrong.” And I always ignored him but then I got thinking after all this, he’s totally correct. I just have to go into the laboratory and do some testing first and really give the heavy arrow thing a chance. Nothing crazy, maybe 150 grain broadheads, 100 grain insert, 300 spine. Get into that 18-19% FOC. I’m not shooting a crazy distance, 30 yards would be my furthest honestly.

I shot mechanicals for years starting out and got good kills as long as I hit the soft parts. Looking back, I realize that a lot of those successes should have made me think about the fact that I was not getting pass throughs on 90 pound does and they were running off with my arrows, destroying them in the process. I had some failures in there too and chalked those up to bad luck. What got me to look for a solution was when I shot the biggest buck of my life to that point and the arrow stopped cold like I hit a 2x6. That buck ran off. I never saw him again. The property owner saw him a week or so later.

Adding some weight and FOC to your setup will likely help you overall but as Redsquirrel pointed out, none of this is a replacement for taking high percentage shots. These arrow systems just give you better odds of success when, in spite of doing everything right, things still go wrong. I would think that a 150 Magnus on a 75 to 100 grain insert would serve you pretty well. I shot the 100 grain Magnus Stinger Buzzcuts for several years and really liked them.

 

[neonomad]

I have no data to support this, but am going to submit that heavy arrows and fixed blade heads have done nothing for animal recovery en masse, just a hunch.

Edit: going a step further, my unsolicited advice to OP is keep shooting exactly what you’re shooting and spend your time and effort elsewhere.

 

[DelaWhere_Arrow]

I don't think backstrap. At that shot angle it is almost impossible to get backstrap and nothing else. I shot a buck a few years ago about 13 yds out and I was close to 20' up. I hit just below the spine and exit was on the opposite side of the sternum,but not by much. In situations like that I would always prefer to hit higher rather than low.

Could be back strap and some internals, one lung, liver, guts.