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Madrock

Seems all your missing is some kind of back up. I run a short bridge for rappel and back up by attaching it to my tether via prussik below my ropeman or other. I’m more concerned with my main bridge breaking. If it does, I’ll still be dangling and not falling……many ways/options to do this. I sometimes connect my back up when I first tether in, but usually wait til I’m at height. I doubt your madrock or bridge will fail. But if we even thought for a second it would, we’d replace it. For me it’s peace of mind. I’ll sometimes unweight my set up and open my main biner to add my back band. Having that backup relieves any mental pressure of a catastrophic failure.
 
bfriendly said:
Seems all your missing is some kind of back up. I run a short bridge for rappel and back up by attaching it to my tether via prussik below my ropeman or other. I’m more concerned with my main bridge breaking. If it does, I’ll still be dangling and not falling……many ways/options to do this. I sometimes connect my back up when I first tether in, but usually wait til I’m at height. I doubt your madrock or bridge will fail. But if we even thought for a second it would, we’d replace it. For me it’s peace of mind. I’ll sometimes unweight my set up and open my main biner to add my back band. Having that backup relieves any mental pressure of a catastrophic failure.
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Exactly on doing what gives you peace of mind. I run a 1/4 full burry amsteel bridge with 1/4 amsteel prusik. I have no desire to run a second bridge because I am confident in my equipment. But if I was uneasy I’d run one no problem.


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I use the safeguard for climbing while one sticking, hunting, then rappelling without a backup. I’m a bigger guy and it hasn’t shown any problems or given me any reason to doubt it’s safety. I’m not advising anyone to climb or hunt without a backup, just letting you know as a 280lb guy, I trust my equipment.


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DeerLaughAtMe said:
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A simple Alpine Butterfly knot as a backup would keep you from going to the ground if the Madrock failed.


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Click to expand...
Awesome set up!
 
Thanks for all the replies! Which “backup” would be best for Srt climbing with the madrock?


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bfriendly said:
Seems all your missing is some kind of back up. I run a short bridge for rappel and back up by attaching it to my tether via prussik below my ropeman or other. I’m more concerned with my main bridge breaking. If it does, I’ll still be dangling and not falling……many ways/options to do this. I sometimes connect my back up when I first tether in, but usually wait til I’m at height. I doubt your madrock or bridge will fail. But if we even thought for a second it would, we’d replace it. For me it’s peace of mind. I’ll sometimes unweight my set up and open my main biner to add my back band. Having that backup relieves any mental pressure of a catastrophic failure.
Click to expand...

Would this backup technique work for Srt climbing with the madrock?


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IMO there are a couple specific questions and thoughts.

First, many saddle hunters, if not most, are using devices out of spec for the rope diameter they are using. There are no assissted belay devices I know of rated for 8 mm rope which many guys use. Anecdotally it seems fine. Are you comfortable with that? What about on wet/icy ropes? To each their own there. I use certain devices out of spec and out of best practice too. But it would be cool as we see rope access for hunters growing in if we could get some dedicated mechanical devices geared toward hunters (lightweight) that test out for 8 mm rope.

Regarding using the device at hunting height I think the feasibiltiy of that depends a lot on how much pressure you keep on the device. Which sort of underlies are you team ring of steps or platform, where ros guys tend to keep tension on the tether the entire hunt and platform guys do not.

Second, I see a lot of guys using these mechanical devices that probably have not the slightest clue or practice how to self rescue if the device were to jam or otherwise fail. Sure a catastophe knot is a good practice in theory, but if you needed that and you're now hanging there from that knot, do you know how to transition to a backup rappel device? Or are you going to be hanging there until someone else can rescue you?

As another example, a friction hitch or autoblock below a belay device is one recommended procedure. Well, if not spaced properly the friction hitch can jammed get up into the device then you're stuck hanging there. Now you have a situation where you have to self rescue or hang there until someone can come get you. Would you know how to do that self rescue? You really should know a couple ways to self rescue and practice them before you ascend 3 feet off the ground SRT no matter what progress capture device you choose.
 
elk yinzer said:
IMO there are a couple specific questions and thoughts.

First, many saddle hunters, if not most, are using devices out of spec for the rope diameter they are using. There are no assissted belay devices I know of rated for 8 mm rope which many guys use. Anecdotally it seems fine. Are you comfortable with that? What about on wet/icy ropes? To each their own there. I use certain devices out of spec and out of best practice too. But it would be cool as we see rope access for hunters growing in if we could get some dedicated mechanical devices geared toward hunters (lightweight) that test out for 8 mm rope.

Second, I see a lot of guys using these mechanical devices that probably have not the slightest clue or practice how to self rescue if the device were to jam or otherwise fail. Sure a catastophe knot is a good practice in theory, but if you needed that and you're now hanging there from that knot, do you know how to transition to a backup rappel device? Or are you going to be hanging there until someone else can rescue you?

As another example, a friction hitch or autoblock below a belay device is one recommended procedure. Well, if not spaced properly the friction hitch can jammed get up into the device then you're stuck hanging there. Now you have a situation where you have to self rescue or hang there until someone can come get you. Would you know how to do that self rescue? You really should know a couple ways to self rescue and practice them before you ascend 3 feet off the ground SRT no matter what progress capture device you choose.
Click to expand...


Great points. I feel the same as I am starting my 1 - stick practice. Ordered a figure 8 device (very inexpensive) and will practice climbing and rappelling with this device. Learning the Munter knot and climbing/rappelling from carabiner is also good thing to know in the event that your mechanical device fails or drops.
 
elk yinzer said:
IMO there are a couple specific questions and thoughts.

First, many saddle hunters, if not most, are using devices out of spec for the rope diameter they are using. There are no assissted belay devices I know of rated for 8 mm rope which many guys use. Anecdotally it seems fine. Are you comfortable with that? What about on wet/icy ropes? To each their own there. I use certain devices out of spec and out of best practice too. But it would be cool as we see rope access for hunters growing in if we could get some dedicated mechanical devices geared toward hunters (lightweight) that test out for 8 mm rope.

Regarding using the device at hunting height I think the feasibiltiy of that depends a lot on how much pressure you keep on the device. Which sort of underlies are you team ring of steps or platform, where ros guys tend to keep tension on the tether the entire hunt and platform guys do not.

Second, I see a lot of guys using these mechanical devices that probably have not the slightest clue or practice how to self rescue if the device were to jam or otherwise fail. Sure a catastophe knot is a good practice in theory, but if you needed that and you're now hanging there from that knot, do you know how to transition to a backup rappel device? Or are you going to be hanging there until someone else can rescue you?

As another example, a friction hitch or autoblock below a belay device is one recommended procedure. Well, if not spaced properly the friction hitch can jammed get up into the device then you're stuck hanging there. Now you have a situation where you have to self rescue or hang there until someone can come get you. Would you know how to do that self rescue? You really should know a couple ways to self rescue and practice them before you ascend 3 feet off the ground SRT no matter what progress capture device you choose.
Click to expand...

Good points! A lot to think about. Almost makes me miss my climber!


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bpz89 said:
Thanks for all the replies! Which “backup” would be best for Srt climbing with the madrock?


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Click to expand...
I don't think you need it for SRT climbing since you never have slack. You can always add it once you get to height. I don't have a back up, but I switch to a separate tether once I get to hunting height. Others will probably say you need it for redundancy. I'm not sure how it would work during SRT, though. I think it would bind and lock on you.

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tarafrost said:
Backing up a safeguard with an autoblock or any other hitch, below the safebuard is specifically called out as a dangerous practice by Madrock.
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True. But using an Autoblock below the Safeguard tied to your lineman's loop on your saddle prohibits the knot from ever contacting your Safeguard. It is a wise back-up in my opinion.
 
DOMMA said:
True. But using an Autoblock below the Safeguard tied to your lineman's loop on your saddle prohibits the knot from ever contacting your Safeguard. It is a wise back-up in my opinion.
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Not really. Your body can twist in such a way that all the rope between your M. Safeguard
and your autoblock attached to one side of yr LM loop can disappear in the bink of an eye. Always backup a MSF above the device!
 
Samcirrus said:
Not really. Your body can twist in such a way that all the rope between your M. Safeguard
and your autoblock attached to one side of yr LM loop can disappear in the bink of an eye. Always backup a MSF above the device!
Click to expand...

That would have to be one hell of a contortion. My SG is chin high, my autoblock is attached to my lineman's loop with a carabiner. But, I want to learn, is there a way to back up the Safeguard with a knot above the devise?
 
DOMMA said:
That would have to be one hell of a contortion. My SG is chin high, my autoblock is attached to my lineman's loop with a carabiner. But, I want to learn, is there a way to back up the Safeguard with a knot above the devise?
Click to expand...

You backing up while hanging or rapelling or both?

My plan is to back up while hanging using an alpine butterfly below, clipped into my bridge 'biner. Don't plan to use a backup when rapelling down.....gonna trust the safeguard for that.

YMMV
 
You can put the rappel device on a sling or longer bridge also. You can also get in a pickle with a friction hitch above the device if you bind the hitch up to where you can't move. This is a particular pickle I have experienced in fact which is why I now go with the below method. Point being there is a lot to think about beyond just slapping on a mechanical device and calling it super good enough.
 
sureshot said:
I don't think you need it for SRT climbing since you never have slack. You can always add it once you get to height. I don't have a back up, but I switch to a separate tether once I get to hunting height. Others will probably say you need it for redundancy. I'm not sure how it would work during SRT, though. I think it would bind and lock on you.

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Click to expand...
I SRT with the safeguard. I have a sling that goes from my hand ascender to my safeguard's carabiner. At height I switch to a tether since I'm often anchored higher than I want to hunt at. Regardless if I'm hunting off my rappel line or tether, I tie an alpine butterfly hooked into my carabiner too as a backup.
 
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