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Micro-cleat failure?

diuilin

diuilin

Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
67
I'm really curious (well more than curiosity, obviously). Is anyone aware of any actual failures with Harken Micro Carbon Cam Cleat? On these forums I see a lot of very sensible warnings about their relatively low capacity compared to the Harken 150, but it also seems like a lot of guys use them, and Rebel_1125 makes a good case for why the load is very unlikely ever to approach the rating. (I'm not an engineer or a physicist, but I gather it has to do with the fact that only half the load is on the cleat with the other half being on the fixed end of the rope -- Rebel_1125, maybe you can say more here?).

Minor reasons to use the micro: 1. the size of the 150 is such that you can't stack the sticks anymore. 2. I already own one and don't want to spend another $40-$50 on the 150.

Major reason to spend that extra money: possibility of failure. I plan on using a tether and lineman for now, at least until I'm more confident with my one-stick method. So if it does fail, I'm confident I won't get more than a good scare and some scrapes. And I'll carry a versa strap as a backup.
 
I have the regular micro cam cleat it’s rated at 200#. The carbon ones are not rated as high. They are same size just different materials and less ratings. That’s why I didn’t go with the carbon version.
 
I had a small rhonstan carbon cam cleat break. I was jumping on the stick at ground level to see if it would break. The centre popped out. That was two years ago.

I wanted to know because they do stack better. I have often used the small on my first stick from the ground - less risk. Now I one stick I just use a medium.

My jumps on the stick were about 15 inches so the force from 200 pounds of me would be high

I was testing a stick I made. The stick was 1/16 wall aluminium and the cleat broke. I was expecting the post to bend instead


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Last edited:
I was looking at putting a harken micro on a stick but I am a little over 250 and that 200lb working load worries me. I really don’t want to go up to the regular cleat. It’s quite a bit larger.

wanted to add a cleat for one sticking but might try Amsteel daisy chain with a monkey fist on the end for swinging around the tree.
 
enkriss said:
I was looking at putting a harken micro on a stick but I am a little over 250 and that 200lb working load worries me. I really don’t want to go up to the regular cleat. It’s quite a bit larger.

wanted to add a cleat for one sticking but might try Amsteel daisy chain with a monkey fist on the end for swinging around the tree.
Click to expand...

I would use a large cam cleat for sure if you one stick. It is way easier to one stick with a cam cleat IMO.
You can still use that stick when using multiple sticks. Just put it on the top of the stack.





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enkriss said:
I was looking at putting a harken micro on a stick but I am a little over 250 and that 200lb working load worries me. I really don’t want to go up to the regular cleat. It’s quite a bit larger.
Click to expand...
Ontariofarmer said:
I had a small rhonstan carbon cam cleat break. I was jumping on the stick at ground level to see if it would break. The centre popped out. That was two years ago.

My jumps on the stick were about 15 inches so the force from 200 pounds of me would be high
Click to expand...


The standard Harken cam cleat 150 is rated at 300 lbs. It's just under 50% larger than the micro in all dimensions and you'd probably be adding another 2 oz, including the slightly larger mounting hardware. Seems worth it to me for one-sticking. If I were putting them on a whole set of sticks, I'd go with the standard Harken Micro-cam cleat based on @Rebel_1125 's reasoning and what makes sense to me.(I weigh about 190). Since I'm replacing the micro carbo-cam cleat, rated for only 150 lbs, and only putting it one stick, I've opted for the 150. I hope it gets here soon so I can get in some practice before opening day!

I listed my micro carbo-cam cleat on eBay, but I no longer think it's a good choice for climbing sticks, so I'm not posting it here.

I'm pretty new to this forum, but I'm amazed at how different people's risk tolerances can be, and yet how respectful everyone can be of those differences. I mean there's one guy who has ground down his stick and drilled what's left full of holes to save weight. Then there are those who won't use an 8 mm rope in a device that's rated down to only 8.1 mm. But it's all OK. Once we're back to having public gatherings, I'm looking forward to meeting some more saddlehunters in person.
 
I had the red plastic cap on the Harken 150 break when I was tightening it on my stick. The plastic cap is basically the only thing holding the bearings in. When the bearings fall out, the cleat fails. Just an fyi to keep an eye on the plastic parts. Watch this video so you guys know what to look for:
 
diuilin said:
I'm really curious (well more than curiosity, obviously). Is anyone aware of any actual failures with Harken Micro Carbon Cam Cleat? On these forums I see a lot of very sensible warnings about their relatively low capacity compared to the Harken 150, but it also seems like a lot of guys use them, and Rebel_1125 makes a good case for why the load is very unlikely ever to approach the rating. (I'm not an engineer or a physicist, but I gather it has to do with the fact that only half the load is on the cleat with the other half being on the fixed end of the rope -- Rebel_1125, maybe you can say more here?).

Minor reasons to use the micro: 1. the size of the 150 is such that you can't stack the sticks anymore. 2. I already own one and don't want to spend another $40-$50 on the 150.

Major reason to spend that extra money: possibility of failure. I plan on using a tether and lineman for now, at least until I'm more confident with my one-stick method. So if it does fail, I'm confident I won't get more than a good scare and some scrapes. And I'll carry a versa strap as a backup.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I really don’t see a case where worst case loading takes over, as soon as you slip, the majority load transfers to the teeth / standoff. As far as I can see...


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Jtaylor said:
I had the red plastic cap on the Harken 150 break when I was tightening it on my stick. The plastic cap is basically the only thing holding the bearings in. When the bearings fall out, the cleat fails. Just an fyi to keep an eye on the plastic parts. Watch this video so you guys know what to look for:
Click to expand...

Sounds like what happened to mine when it failed. I think that the small cam cleat is fine until you add a short slip or fall to your climb.


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Aaronpaul14 said:
I have the regular micro cam cleat it’s rated at 200#. The carbon ones are not rated as high. They are same size just different materials and less ratings. That’s why I didn’t go with the carbon version.
Click to expand...

The aluminum cams are a better choice than the plastic and the two are the same size. I have one plastic and 2 aluminum on my hawks, the only difference I can tell is the plastic cam.


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Rebel_1125 said:
The aluminum cams are a better choice than the plastic and the two are the same size. I have one plastic and 2 aluminum on my hawks, the only difference I can tell is the plastic cam.


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Click to expand...

It is carbon fibre not plastic


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Ontariofarmer said:
It is carbon fibre not plastic


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Click to expand...

It is 100% not carbon fibre (the way you think of carbon fibre) if it were it would be useless as it’s made because carbon fibre is terrible in compression, it would just crumble. Carbon fiber is by definition a composite laminate, and would be very difficult to lay in a 3D shape like the part we are discussing. Carbon fibre is only loaded in tension (the fiber orientation is generally laid in the direction of the tension or with alternating layers at a 45 degree angle to it to increase strength in other directions) .

The cam cleat is an injection molded plastic (most likely Polyamide aka Nylon 66) part. The plastic contains fibers (probably 30% short fibers) this is a very common engineering practice to modify the properties and characteristics of an injection molded part.


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Rebel_1125 said:
It is 100% not carbon fibre (the way you think of carbon fibre) if it were it would be useless as it’s made because carbon fibre is terrible in compression, it would just crumble. Carbon fiber is by definition a composite laminate, and would be very difficult to lay in a 3D shape like the part we are discussing. Carbon fibre is only loaded in tension (the fiber orientation is generally laid in the direction of the tension or with alternating layers at a 45 degree angle to it to increase strength in other directions) .

The cam cleat is an injection molded plastic (most likely Polyamide aka Nylon 66) part. The plastic contains fibers (probably 30% short fibers) this is a very common engineering practice to modify the properties and characteristics of an injection molded part.


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Click to expand...

Ok. It is called a carbon fibre cleat. So my assumption is that is what it was.
Sounds like you know more than me.

I do know I had one break but I was trying to stress the stick to test it


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Carbon fibre composite cams
Long strand glass fibre reinforced polymer base
PTFE impregnated Acetal slotted bearing
Stainless steel multi-coil spring


Plastic base glass fiber carbon fiber composite?

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