My next step, arrows

[Allegheny Tom]

Yeah, for this year anyway. I have been fletching my compound arrows for years with my trusty Bitzberger jig. I would like to do the same with trad arrows. That's a whole nother learning curve to overcome, though. So for this year, I took the shortcut of prefletched. It's all good.

I wasn't saying that there were no choices for left bevel in sb heads, I was just saying that I'm unsure of the range of choices of left bevs in a 3:1 profile. I really like my 200 gr Samurai but until recently, they were only available in right bev, however Grizzlystik has reintroduced them in a left bevel.
But if you have a Bitzenburger, then there's no reason that you can't match your fletch to whatever bevel heads you choose. There really isn't any learning curve to fletching arrows for trad. Just make sure that you have the correct index knob and clamp (right, or left, or straight) for your jig and you are good to go. I've been using my trusty Bitzenburger for 30-some years. I've fletched arrows for compounds and recurves, feathers and vanes, 4 fletch, 3 fletch, right wing and left wing, helical and straight...no big deal. I'm sure you can easily do it too.

 

[GCTerpfan]

Single bevel isn’t going to make a huge difference. Main thing is two blade, close to 3:1, and razor sharp.

I agree with this. Your not going to break bone with 34# regardless of the broadhead. So, if cost was the reason you were going to use the broadheads you already had @katiesmom and your not sure about the Cutthroats, razor sharp Zwickeys have killed a lot of deer. Or the single bevel Grizzlys are half the cost of the cutthroats and closer to 3:1

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Single bevel isn’t going to make a huge difference. Main thing is two blade, close to 3:1, and razor sharp.

That's a tough call. Yeah, the main attribute of single bevel is the ability to penetrate heavy bone and at the energy level of the OP's rig, I doubt there will be much shoulder-bone shattering. But there will still be ribs involved and possibly clipping the thinner part of the scapula. I really do like Ashby's position on arrow lethality... There really is no such thing as overkill. Make the arrows as best as you can get them because crap will eventually happen, may as well plan for it. Arrows shouldn't be "good enough", arrows should be "as good as I can get 'em".

One other point to the OP. Based on your amount of energy, you might want to stick to broadside shots only. Not that you won't get lethal results with quartering away hits, but having an exit wound can be critical to producing an adequate blood trail. And with quartering away shots, you're basically aiming for an exit on the far shoulder. That could be problematic for your rig.

 

[kbetts]

There is a lot going on with this conversation besides just an arrow build.

The ability to put yourself in a position close enough to get off a shot is the bigger part. There is not much room for error inside 18 ish yards. The main reason hunters want to be able to shoot farther or steer away from trad setups…..they can‘t get close enough.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

There is a lot going on with this conversation besides just an arrow build.

The ability to put yourself in a position close enough to get off a shot is the bigger part. There is not much room for error inside 18 ish yards. The main reason hunters want to be able to shoot farther or steer away from trad setups…..they can‘t get close enough.

Very true. But there are some very skilled hunters that can get close enough to reach out and touch the critter, but often those same hunters know little (or nothing) about arrow lethality. One of the riskiest shots is 5 yards with an untuned arrow. On a lot of rigs with ultra close shots, the arrow has not yet recovered from paradox and penetration is terrible.

 

[katiesmom]

There is a lot going on with this conversation besides just an arrow build.

The ability to put yourself in a position close enough to get off a shot is the bigger part. There is not much room for error inside 18 ish yards. The main reason hunters want to be able to shoot farther or steer away from trad setups…..they can‘t get close enough.

I agree. All my kill shots with compounds over 20+ years have been inside 25 yards. I set my outer limit with a trad at 20 and in. My doe kill last year was 12, for example with compound. And I do wait for high percentage shots, ie broadside.

 

[krub6b]

I would consider trying some 300 grain field points with your 100 grain insert weight and see how that flies, especially if you are considering buying different broadheads anyway.

 

[katiesmom]

I would consider trying some 300 grain field points with your 100 grain insert weight and see how that flies, especially if you are considering buying different broadheads anyway.

Wow. Hadn't thought of that. It would bring my arrow weight to over 700.

 

[BTaylor]

Wow. Hadn't thought of that. It would bring my arrow weight to over 700.

There is absolutely no way I would consider, much less encourage anyone else to to shoot an arrow that heavy in her situation. With her current setup, she is almost to 20 grain per pound of draw and already beyond the max efficiency weight for her bow and going down. Adding weight is going to make it that much worse. If anything, she could go down in TAW some and gain performance ie: maximize the efficiency of her bow and arrow setup. With a 700 grain arrow shot from a 34# bow at 25" draw, she wont need a chrono, she will need a sun dial.

 

[krub6b]

There is absolutely no way I would consider, much less encourage anyone else to to shoot an arrow that heavy in her situation. With her current setup, she is almost to 20 grain per pound of draw and already beyond the max efficiency weight for her bow and going down. Adding weight is going to make it that much worse. If anything, she could go down in TAW some and gain performance ie: maximize the efficiency of her bow and arrow setup. With a 700 grain arrow shot from a 34# bow at 25" draw, she wont need a chrono, she will need a sun dial.

It certainly wouldn't be a textbook setup and it may not fly right or be as efficient as the 200gr she is using, without a chrono to verify speed and energy this is all theoretical anyway. But if I doesn't kill her speed or arrow flight it could be worth considering. For the price of some field points I would try it, but maybe I've snorted too much Fairy Dust

 

[BTaylor]

It certainly wouldn't be a textbook setup and it may not fly right or be as efficient as the 200gr she is using, without a chrono to verify speed and energy this is all theoretical anyway. But if I doesn't kill her speed or arrow flight it could be worth considering. For the price of some field points I would try it, but maybe I've snorted too much Fairy Dust

Maybe somewhat theoretical but dont need to do any mental gymnastics to feel confident saying an arrow over 20 grains per pound of draw is not going to perform nearly as well as one 15 or less. A 700 grain arrow shot from her bow is 20.59 grains per pound of draw and she is only drawing 25". There is a monumental difference between that and a guy shooting the same arrow from a 50# bow drawing 28" because that 700 grain arrow in that case is 14 gpp and he is drawing 16 pounds heavier and 3" more draw length which is significant increase in power. To compare, a 500 grain arrow from her setup is 14.71 gpp. The equivalent setup for a 50# bow would be 735.5 gpp.

Just my opinion but my recommendation would be an arrow setup more in the range of 400-500 TAW with an efficient 2 blade head. That much arrow weight is enough to absorb nearly if not all of the energy she is producing with the bow and draw length. Increasing the arrow weight beyond that point will only reduce terminal performance.

 

[AppalachianArcher]

Yeah, for this year anyway. I have been fletching my compound arrows for years with my trusty Bitzberger jig. I would like to do the same with trad arrows. That's a whole nother learning curve to overcome, though. So for this year, I took the shortcut of prefletched. It's all good.

No difference as far as the process goes, just a different material being glued down. I use a Bitz on my traditional arrows and my buddies compound arrows.

 

[AppalachianArcher]

There is absolutely no way I would consider, much less encourage anyone else to to shoot an arrow that heavy in her situation. With her current setup, she is almost to 20 grain per pound of draw and already beyond the max efficiency weight for her bow and going down. Adding weight is going to make it that much worse. If anything, she could go down in TAW some and gain performance ie: maximize the efficiency of her bow and arrow setup. With a 700 grain arrow shot from a 34# bow at 25" draw, she wont need a chrono, she will need a sun dial.

I find this interesting because I know Traditional Bowhunting and Wilderness Podcast is going to be doing some videos on the Bishop arrow setup that is 1350gr. He shooting a Northern Mist Classic that is 56 or 57 pounds at his draw. This would have his TAW over 20gpp. I'm interested to see how they perform, granted they are for dangerous game and not necessarily for whitetails or anything remotely close. So, in theory, they would have close to the same efficiency.

 

[krub6b]

I find this interesting because I know Traditional Bowhunting and Wilderness Podcast is going to be doing some videos on the Bishop arrow setup that is 1350gr. He shooting a Northern Mist Classic that is 56 or 57 pounds at his draw. This would have his TAW over 20gpp. I'm interested to see how they perform, granted they are for dangerous game and not necessarily for whitetails or anything remotely close. So, in theory, they would have close to the same efficiency.

I have a similar line of thought, to fully test this without a chrono might be possible though. By shooting a variety of field point weights, 100's, 125's, 200, 300 would be a good line up I think, and then measuring the average penetration on a target of say 5 to 10 shots, throw out any outliers that may have hit a soft spot and see where penetration maxes out. That should illustrate the point where the bow doesn't have enough energy to push heavier arrows.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Ashby says to shoot the heaviest arrow that you can live with in terms of trajectory.
And his massively extensive testing was all on animals...either live animals or freshly killed before rigormortous has set in.
He doesnt test on any type of balistic gel, or foam targets, or other medium...his tests are as realistic as can be done.

 

[BTaylor]

I find this interesting because I know Traditional Bowhunting and Wilderness Podcast is going to be doing some videos on the Bishop arrow setup that is 1350gr. He shooting a Northern Mist Classic that is 56 or 57 pounds at his draw. This would have his TAW over 20gpp. I'm interested to see how they perform, granted they are for dangerous game and not necessarily for whitetails or anything remotely close. So, in theory, they would have close to the same efficiency.

I may be wrong but I would expect the kinetic energy and momentum numbers from that set up will not be optimum for the bow at the shooter's draw length. Will be curious to see how that turns out.

 

[JSEXTON23]

I may be wrong but I would expect the kinetic energy and momentum numbers from that set up will not be optimum for the bow at the shooter's draw length. Will be curious to see how that turns out.

The funny thing about kinetic energy is, at the bow, the light and heavy arrow will have nearly identical KE. The lighter arrow will see faster KE erosion when compared to the heavy arrow, and the heavy arrow will always have more momentum at the target, the aspect I believe has more to do with penetration anyway.

I would also argue that, though you might be approaching the efficiency maximum of any given bow, you haven’t reached it at 20 gpp. I could be wrong and would love to see a test performed.

 

[woodsdog2]

Kind long.... So taking yalls advice, I bought Easton XX75 gamegetter 500s, fletched with 3 5 inch plastic feathers, cut at 28 in. I'm shooting my Bear Super K 40# at 34#@25. I took 3 arrows and put regular inserts and 3 with 100 gr inserts.

Then I set them up with 100 gr and 200 gr field points to total 200 total point weight. Both shot fine from 15 yards.

Then I stuck a 200 grain field point on an arrow with 100 gr insert. It flew the smoothest of all of them.

Am I crazy to try this given my short draw length and bow draw weight? Especially for whitetail hunting?

Thanks for any thoughts, or advice.

No way this is what you want. A beefy, heavy front tipped arrow to zip through them like butter. You probably don't want to set you saddle up for 35 yard shots but 15 to 25 yard shots why not?

 

[JSEXTON23]

There is a lot going on with this conversation besides just an arrow build.

The ability to put yourself in a position close enough to get off a shot is the bigger part. There is not much room for error inside 18 ish yards. The main reason hunters want to be able to shoot farther or steer away from trad setups…..they can‘t get close enough.

I don’t consider myself a great deer hunter. Average on my best days. With that said I’ve never released an arrow further than 18 yards at a deer until this past season when I harvested a doe at 24 yards. 90% of my bow harvests have been 12 and under, several from the ground.

I don’t believe it is a lack of being able to get that close but a lack of patience and discipline that drive people to shoot 30+ yards at deer. Not judgement if you want to shoot that far at them, I’ve just never felt the need to. And perhaps the confidence.

 

[rhagenw]

Penetration test on targets is not a good measurement...another vote to 3:1 ratio...great thread!