Rappelling 101

[Bwhana]

No offense taken
I have the second tether anyway in case I want to move higher in the tree so I use it as a backup. Do you think people hunting from a Summit would think this is too complicated? I only have the setup that @JKline shows in his video with the addition of a sling to make the Petzl ascender life support. I am not sure how to make it simpler.
I guess I am doing a poor job of selling SRT / RADS. I will simplify for the next photo op.
If I removed all those rope wraps through the carabiner I would feel less safe just relying on the Safeguard to hold me with no backup on the tail.

I absolutely get what you are doing, but I have guys tell me mine is too complicated for them with much less, so yes, many out there would rather stick with a climber. I know we have seen the site grow a lot in the past few years and it seems like saddles are growing exponentially, but I don't see it ever being true mainstream or a truly huge market. I may be wrong on that. I thought I was wrong once, but was mistaken

 

[robstewart]

The safeguard is holding all of the weight and not allowing the jammy to grab the rope. It takes tension on the rope for a friction hitch to grab the rope. If you were using an atc device the friction hitch would bite the rope no problem. With a grigri or safeguard you dont use a friction hitch. Instead you tie off your tag end of rope when you stop on the descent. Here is a link showing how to do that. https://www.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-GRIGRI-to-have-your-hands-free

As far as stopping on the descent with a belay device and not using some type of backup, such as tying it off, I have never had an issue either. But it is irresponsible to give the advice that you dont need to do it. Because it is a device, and devices fail. Everyone must be responsible for their own safety when they are off the ground. I personally dont tie off every time but I realize that when I dont use a backup of some sort I am placing my life in the hands of a man made device that could fail at any time.

Did anyone yell at you that you HAVE TO HOLD THE TAG END!!! ? Every time someone posts about using a device like a safeguard or grigri to rappel and/or hang off, someone throws the “that’s not an approved use” statement.

I was thinking about that recently and the advice to always keep your hand on the tag end is a) lawyer speak and b) applicable when using the device to belay a climber. Most devices like the ATC are belay devices and as far as I can tell aren’t ever supported by the maker for rappelling lol


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[weekender21]

Did anyone yell at you that you HAVE TO HOLD THE TAG END!!! ? Every time someone posts about using a device like a safeguard or grigri to rappel and/or hang off, someone throws the “that’s not an approved use” statement.

I was thinking about that recently and the advice to always keep your hand on the tag end is a) lawyer speak and b) applicable when using the device to belay a climber. Most devices like the ATC are belay devices and as far as I can tell aren’t ever supported by the maker for rappelling lol


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Everyone that has used a mechanical belay device realizes they will hold you without keeping your hand on the tag end. However mechanical devices DO BREAK. GriGri, MR Lifeguard, Safeguard take your pick. You can find an example of one breaking with a little research.

You're right, they're not sold as a rappelling device (that's one of the reasons I use an ATC and autoblock on the rappel) but if you're going to use it for that purpose you should be smart about it.

 

[pesqimon]

Did anyone yell at you that you HAVE TO HOLD THE TAG END!!! ? Every time someone posts about using a device like a safeguard or grigri to rappel and/or hang off, someone throws the “that’s not an approved use” statement.

I was thinking about that recently and the advice to always keep your hand on the tag end is a) lawyer speak and b) applicable when using the device to belay a climber. Most devices like the ATC are belay devices and as far as I can tell aren’t ever supported by the maker for rappelling lol


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I can only speak about the GriGri2 and not the Madrock devices, but the main reason for me to keep my hand on the tag end is not to avoid catastrophe but to make my descent smoother. Hand on the line affords better control and proper feeding of the line into the device.

The fact that Petzl doesn’t stand behind the GriGri2 for rappelling is fascinating since it has been used in that capacity for a long time. I didn’t read all the spec sheets back then...

 

[robstewart]

Everyone that has used a mechanical belay device realizes they will hold you without keeping your hand on the tag end. However mechanical devices DO BREAK. GriGri, MR Lifeguard, Safeguard take your pick. You can find an example of one breaking with a little research.

You're right, they're not sold as a rappelling device (that's one of the reasons I use an ATC and autoblock on the rappel) but if you're going to use it for that purpose you should be smart about it.

I agree 100%!


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[Letemgrowitllshow]

Read through this thread and have a few questions....

What is the advantage of mechanical devices vs. an ATC?
I am no expert but I have rappelled before with an atc and autoblock. That was such an easy system.

Autoblock below vs. above device?
Is there a right answer to this question. Seems like it's being done both ways.

Is there a device that can be used to rappelling and for srt ascending?

 

[Tr33_n1nj@]

Read through this thread and have a few questions....

What is the advantage of mechanical devices vs. an ATC?
I am no expert but I have rappelled before with an atc and autoblock. That was such an easy system.

Autoblock below vs. above device?
Is there a right answer to this question. Seems like it's being done both ways.

Is there a device that can be used to rappelling and for srt ascending?

I’m no expert, but one advantage for mechanicical is if you are ascending and descending you can do it with the same device. But if you are only rappelling, someone else will have to tell you the advantage because I can’t see one at the moment.

 

[bj139]

I hold the tag end of the rope down with my non-handle holding hand while descending. If I stop and the assisted braking device is holding I do let go of the tag end although sometimes I loop the tag end of the rope around my thigh before letting go.
I will stop now since these same questions seem to be asked and answered every two weeks. The search function works for me.
Try on Google rapelling site:saddlehunter.com Did I spell that right?

 

[weekender21]

Read through this thread and have a few questions....

What is the advantage of mechanical devices vs. an ATC?

•There is no advantage of a mechanical belay device vs. an ATC for rappelling IMO. Hunters using a mechanical rappel device for SRT might use the same device on rappel. If you’re just rappelling the mechanical device has no advantage.

I am no expert but I have rappelled before with an atc and autoblock. That was such an easy system.

•yep. Easy and simple.

Autoblock below vs. above device?
Is there a right answer to this question. Seems like it's being done both ways.

•Below is most common but it is possible for your autoblock material to become stuck in your belay device if you don’t know what you’re doing. That's the advantage of an autoblock above the ATC. I’ve used a VT Prusik above an ATC, works fine.

Is there a device that can be used to rappelling and for srt ascending?

•this is where some are using the mechanical belay devices. Not designed for this purpose exactly but they can be used safely (my opinion NOT recommendation) if you know what you’re doing. I ascend with a MR Safeguard and rappel with an ATC, just my preference. An ATC and autoblock weigh almost nothing. I’d have it with me for a backup regardless.

?

What is the advantage of mechanical devices vs. an ATC?

•There is no advantage of a mechanical belay device vs. an ATC for rappelling IMO. Hunters using a mechanical rappel device for SRT might use the same device on rappel. If you’re just rappelling the mechanical device has no advantage.

I am no expert but I have rappelled before with an atc and autoblock. That was such an easy system.

•yep. Easy and simple.

Autoblock below vs. above device?
Is there a right answer to this question. Seems like it's being done both ways.

•Below is most common but it is possible for your autoblock material to become stuck in your belay device if you don’t know what you’re doing. That's the advantage of an autoblock above the ATC. I’ve used a VT Prusik above an ATC, works fine.

Is there a device that can be used to rappelling and for srt ascending?

•This is where some are using the mechanical belay devices. Not designed for this purpose exactly but they can be used safely (my opinion NOT recommendation) if you know what you’re doing. I ascend with a MR Safeguard and rappel with an ATC, just my preference. An ATC and autoblock weigh almost nothing. I’d have it with me for a backup regardless. I prefer the ATC and autoblock on rappel because it's a safe way to operate hands free (again, my opinion) when removing a platform and or sticks etc.




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[Letemgrowitllshow]

What is the advantage of mechanical devices vs. an ATC?

•Not for rappelling, no. Hunters using a mechanical rappel device for SRT might use the same device on rappel. If you’re just rappelling the mechanical device has no advantage.

I am no expert but I have rappelled before with an atc and autoblock. That was such an easy system.

•yep. Easy and simple.

Autoblock below vs. above device?
Is there a right answer to this question. Seems like it's being done both ways.

•Below is most common but it is possible for your autoblock material to become stuck in your belay device if you don’t know what you’re doing. I’ve used a VT Prusik above an ATC, works fine.

Is there a device that can be used to rappelling and for srt ascending?

•this is where some are using the mechanical belay devices. Not designed for this purpose exactly but they can be used safely (my opinion NOT recommendation) if you know what you’re doing. I ascend with a MR Safeguard and rappel with an ATC, just my preference. An ATC and autoblock weigh almost nothing. I’d have it with me for a backup regardless.




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Thanks for the response. When I've rappelled before I ran the autoblock above the ATC. Worked good and no chance of getting it caught in the ATC. To each their own it seems on that one.

I am with you that I'll most likely still use the ATC autoblock combo. Will carry it as backup regardless. Need to do more research on the MR Safeguard....

 

[swamp_possum]

Thanks for the response. When I've rappelled before I ran the autoblock above the ATC. Worked good and no chance of getting it caught in the ATC. To each their own it seems on that one.

I am with you that I'll most likely still use the ATC autoblock combo. Will carry it as backup regardless. Need to do more research on the MR Safeguard....

With an autoblock below the ATC it’s not actually holding all of your weight when you let go of the tag end. All it’s doing is positioning the tag end of your rope into your ATC device so it’s braking itself. Since your weight isn’t supported by the autoblock it makes it easier to unload and continue the rappel. With the autoblock above the ATC when you release the tag end the autoblock is supporting all of your weight and can make it difficult to unload your weight off of it to release the autoblock.

 

[weekender21]

With an autoblock below the ATC it’s not actually holding all of your weight when you let go of the tag end. All it’s doing is positioning the tag end of your rope into your ATC device so it’s braking itself. Since your weight isn’t supported by the autoblock it makes it easier to unload and continue the rappel. With the autoblock above the ATC when you release the tag end the autoblock is supporting all of your weight and can make it difficult to unload your weight off of it to release the autoblock.

Good point, that's why I use a VT Prusik when running it above an ATC. Effortless release. But...I usually use an autoblock (french prusik) below.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

I’m no expert, but one advantage for mechanicical is if you are ascending and descending you can do it with the same device. But if you are only rappelling, someone else will have to tell you the advantage because I can’t see one at the moment.

Yup it is an advantage. So If I have to temporarily descend for personal reasons I can get out my foot loop and hand ascender and head back up.
Something can go wrong with any system. Just back it up.
Nothing worthwhile is without risk. We cannot eliminate risk when climbing a tree We can only reduce risk once we leave the ground

I like the mad rock safe guard and cannot understand why if backed up properly it is not as safe as an ATC. Seems like a crazy worry. Even carabiners and space shuttles can fail. Car brakes can fail and I take the risk of driving but mitigate those risks by servicing the brakes.

If you want zero risk hunt from the ground. Oh that is risky. I could get kicked in the head from the deer I just shot at 5 yards.


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[Vtbow]

Autoblock below vs. above device?
Is there a right answer to this question. Seems like it's being done both ways.

•Below is most common but it is possible for your autoblock material to become stuck in your belay device if you don’t know what you’re doing. That's the advantage of an autoblock above the ATC. I’ve used a VT Prusik above an ATC, works fine.

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I actually disagree: there is a right answer, it needs to be below when rappeling. In the climbing world, autoblock above is NOT best practice for rappelling. As stated above, IF the knot is above, then you are weighting the friction knot 100%, not using the belay device as designed(where the knot is just holding the brake strand in the correct braking positing. IF the friction knot failed(or slipped--had a twig get caught in it, sweatshirt string, whatever to keep it from compressing correctly), and you were hands free the atc would create zero friction and you would fall. IF you are using a prussik knot above the ATC to go hands free, the ATC should be properly tied off using a mule hitch and backup. I"m not saying a autoblock or friction knot should never be above the ATC(often times this is necessary to pass a knot on rappel, of to slingshot into an ascension setup), but that it should not be for rappelling. IF you are having issues with your autoblock running into your device when it is below the device the correct solution is to extend your belay device with a single length sling or such. It actually works better on rappel that way anyway, and gets the device away from any other hanging pieces of clothing, hair, gear, that might get stuck in it on descent.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

I actually disagree: there is a right answer, it needs to be below when rappeling. In the climbing world, autoblock above is NOT best practice for rappelling. As stated above, IF the knot is above, then you are weighting the friction knot 100%, not using the belay device as designed(where the knot is just holding the brake strand in the correct braking positing. IF the friction knot failed(or slipped--had a twig get caught in it, sweatshirt string, whatever to keep it from compressing correctly), and you were hands free the atc would create zero friction and you would fall. IF you are using a prussik knot above the ATC to go hands free, the ATC should be properly tied off using a mule hitch and backup. I"m not saying a autoblock or friction knot should never be above the ATC(often times this is necessary to pass a knot on rappel, of to slingshot into an ascension setup), but that it should not be for rappelling. IF you are having issues with your autoblock running into your device when it is below the device the correct solution is to extend your belay device with a single length sling or such. It actually works better on rappel that way anyway, and gets the device away from any other hanging pieces of clothing, hair, gear, that might get stuck in it on descent.

That is what my rock climbing kids told me. I know nothing but my kids do and what you say is spot on.

 

[hickstick]

I actually disagree: there is a right answer, it needs to be below when rappeling. In the climbing world, autoblock above is NOT best practice for rappelling. As stated above, IF the knot is above, then you are weighting the friction knot 100%, not using the belay device as designed(where the knot is just holding the brake strand in the correct braking positing. IF the friction knot failed(or slipped--had a twig get caught in it, sweatshirt string, whatever to keep it from compressing correctly), and you were hands free the atc would create zero friction and you would fall. IF you are using a prussik knot above the ATC to go hands free, the ATC should be properly tied off using a mule hitch and backup. I"m not saying a autoblock or friction knot should never be above the ATC(often times this is necessary to pass a knot on rappel, of to slingshot into an ascension setup), but that it should not be for rappelling. IF you are having issues with your autoblock running into your device when it is below the device the correct solution is to extend your belay device with a single length sling or such. It actually works better on rappel that way anyway, and gets the device away from any other hanging pieces of clothing, hair, gear, that might get stuck in it on descent.

yup...I've never seen a autoblock run above the device on a rappel on a crag. if your autoblock is in danger of jamming the rappel device you're not running a long enough runner on your extended belay (or bridge if that's what you're belay device is attached to. someone above mentioned attaching their autoblock to the belay loop of their R/C harness. if your runner or bridge isn't long enough thats a recipe for disaster...you'd be better off attaching the autoblock to your leg loop. on your brake side.

 

[weekender21]

I actually disagree: there is a right answer, it needs to be below when rappeling. In the climbing world, autoblock above is NOT best practice for rappelling. As stated above, IF the knot is above, then you are weighting the friction knot 100%, not using the belay device as designed(where the knot is just holding the brake strand in the correct braking positing. IF the friction knot failed(or slipped--had a twig get caught in it, sweatshirt string, whatever to keep it from compressing correctly), and you were hands free the atc would create zero friction and you would fall. IF you are using a prussik knot above the ATC to go hands free, the ATC should be properly tied off using a mule hitch and backup. I"m not saying a autoblock or friction knot should never be above the ATC(often times this is necessary to pass a knot on rappel, of to slingshot into an ascension setup), but that it should not be for rappelling. IF you are having issues with your autoblock running into your device when it is below the device the correct solution is to extend your belay device with a single length sling or such. It actually works better on rappel that way anyway, and gets the device away from any other hanging pieces of clothing, hair, gear, that might get stuck in it on descent.

I’m not going to disagree with you, Ontario’s kids or Hickstick. As stated above I prefer below as well. I use a Sterling Hollowblock below in the autoblock (French Prusik) configuration.

But, I’m not making this up, above is used by climbers and has been recommended by others on this forum. I’m not one to withhold information and I’m not going to tell someone you can’t run a VT above.

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[bj139]

I’m not going to disagree with you, Ontario’s kids or Hickstick. As stated above I prefer below as well. I use a Sterling Hollowblock below in the autoblock (French Prusik) configuration.

But, I’m not making this up, above is used by climbers and has been recommended by others on this forum. I’m not one to withhold information and I’m not going to tell someone you can’t run a VT above.

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I really only give weight to videos published by an accredited climbing organization. They are less likely to get it wrong. Anyone can publish something on Youtube. I would be wary of blindly trusting such videos whether they are recommend by others or not. This video is published by Live Rogue. The name itself suggests going against conventional wisdom

 

[weekender21]

I really only give weight to videos published by an accredited climbing organization. They are less likely to get it wrong. Anyone can publish something on Youtube. I would be wary of blindly trusting such videos whether they are recommend by others or not. This vdeo is published by Live Rogue. The name itself suggests going against conventional wisdom

Cool

That doesn’t mean this isn’t used in the climbing community. It just happened to be an available video.




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[Vtbow]

I’m not going to disagree with you, Ontario’s kids or Hickstick. As stated above I prefer below as well. I use a Sterling Hollowblock below in the autoblock (French Prusik) configuration.

But, I’m not making this up, above is used by climbers and has been recommended by others on this forum. I’m not one to withhold information and I’m not going to tell someone you can’t run a VT above.

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I understand you're not making it up, I"ve seen that video. Any idea what the guys' credentials are? i'm guessing not much....

What I"ve stated is it is not recommended in the climbing industry-- It is not best practices, and I would always only recommend and use best practices. Can someone use a 2x4 as a chock to jam in an offwidth crack and girth hitch it to use as fall protection because they dont have a large enough cam or trango big bro? Sure. Will it work? Maybe. I"ve seen a lot of sketchy practices at the crag, and if I saw someone running the VT above the device on rappel it would be one of them. It still leaves you with a major issue if you say, slip on rappel(tree or rock is slick) and "wow" you throw your hands out in front of you to keep your face from smashing into something. You're now relying 100% on the VT with a belay device not tied off. No backup knot for slippage, nada.

Not a single professional, accredited rock climbing guide would suggest what the guy is doing in the video to someone.