Ropeman Safety

[dbldrew]

I understand 100% how this works. I've been doing it for years. I've also fallen on all sorts of systems. You aren't understanding the input. All the scenarios I showed are falls, it's not dead weight hanging on a rope. Your logic is flawed. Hanging from the rope would be 2' out with -2' from the anchor. If you are hanging, you are at a negative distance from the anchor. Again, the distance is assuming you climb ABOVE the anchor. I can't count how many times this has been discussed in relation to getting gear in the wall immediately after starting a new pitch on a multipitch climb to avoid a FF 2 fall.

Sorry bud, you are flat out wrong.

Example of hanging from rope:
View attachment 18394

I have been doing this for years as well and you are just not understanding the input..

The longer the rope the more bungee effect you get. thats a fact and is always taken into account in calculating the kn that is generated.

what you are saying is that calculator does not take into account the total length of rope from belayer to climber therefore ignoring all bungee effect.. so if it was ignoring that the calculator would A be garbage, and B wouldnt have a option for static (low stretch) vs dynamic (high stretch), plus the fact that in the description it said the calculator is based on fall distance in relation to the length of rope and then goes on to talk about the stretch factor of a dynamic rope.

The rope length is belayer to climber.. it is not the fall distance. I mean test it.. a 160lb with a 1' rope (you saying fall distance) and 0' to last anchor generated 8.16kn so lets change it to 100' of rope.. you still get the same 8.16kn with a 0' last anchor and a 100' fall?? so even if you are correct the calculator is junk because 100' fall vs 1 foot fall does not = the same kn

 

[powhound84]

I have been doing this for years as well and you are just not understanding the input..

The longer the rope the more bungee effect you get. thats a fact and is always taken into account in calculating the kn that is generated.

what you are saying is that calculator does not take into account the total length of rope from belayer to climber therefore ignoring all bungee effect.. so if it was ignoring that the calculator would A be garbage, and B wouldnt have a option for static (low stretch) vs dynamic (high stretch), plus the fact that in the description it said the calculator is based on fall distance in relation to the length of rope and then goes on to talk about the stretch factor of a dynamic rope.

The rope length is belayer to climber.. it is not the fall distance. I mean test it.. a 160lb with a 1' rope (you saying fall distance) and 0' to last anchor generated 8.16kn so lets change it to 100' of rope.. you still get the same 8.16kn with a 0' last anchor and a 100' fall?? so even if you are correct the calculator is junk because 100' fall vs 1 foot fall does not = the same kn

Oh you lead trad?

In our case, there is no belay. Therefore, the fall distance is the amount of rope between climber and the anchor, minus the climber's distance below the anchor. The calculator doesn't assume someone will climb more than a few feet above an anchor without plugging some more gear to lessen the fall, so the whole 100' foot fall directly on the anchors doesn't need to be accounted for. Regardless, the 8kn it outputs is downright dangerous and unacceptable for most safety systems, so the calculator still tells me not to take that fall. I'm confident the scenarios I posted are pretty accurate, although I admit the tool isn't perfect when you start thinking up unrealistic scenarios.

Since you want to downplay fall force, you should video yourself falling 3' on static rope so we can all see it's not a big deal.

 

[mattsteg]

even static ropes have elongation, the standard for static vs dynamic is based on the % of elongation with a 80kg weight, a static rope with a 80 kg hanging can have up to 10% elongation, a dynamic rope can have up to 40% so that 1' is pretty close

Htp 9mm stretches 0.8% at 300 lb. i use this rope, so i used it to ballpark loading.
Oplux 8mm is a 3.3% @ 300lb.
Predator is 3% at 270kg. so 1.5%ish at 300lb.

At 80kg these are likely stretching around .5%-2% ballpark. For a 10 ft length with some rounding that's around .5-2.5 in. For 3 ft? Less than an inch all around. How is this close to a foot? And for a ropeman there's little point in looking at elongation beyond a 4kn load because the rope sheath will fail.

 

[kyler1945]

Oh you lead trad?

In our case, there is no belay. Therefore, the fall distance is the amount of rope between climber and the anchor, minus the climber's distance below the anchor. The calculator doesn't assume someone will climb more than a few feet above an anchor without plugging some more gear to lessen the fall, so the whole 100' foot fall directly on the anchors doesn't need to be accounted for. Regardless, the 8kn it outputs is downright dangerous and unacceptable for most safety systems, so the calculator still tells me not to take that fall. I'm confident the scenarios I posted are pretty accurate, although I admit the tool isn't perfect when you start thinking up unrealistic scenarios.

Since you want to downplay fall force, you should video yourself falling 3' on static rope so we can all see it's not a big deal.

This will now be the third time it’s been asked of him, I doubt we’ll get a response. For the folks who have no idea what’s going on, and are trying to understand - please don’t try falling 3’ in a saddle, anchored by static rope. You will regret it.

 

[dbldrew]

Oh you lead trad?

In our case, there is no belay. Therefore, the fall distance is the amount of rope between climber and the anchor, minus the climber's distance below the anchor. The calculator doesn't assume someone will climb more than a few feet above an anchor without plugging some more gear to lessen the fall, so the whole 100' foot fall directly on the anchors doesn't need to be accounted for. Regardless, the 8kn it outputs is downright dangerous and unacceptable for most safety systems, so the calculator still tells me not to take that fall. I'm confident the scenarios I posted are pretty accurate, although I admit the tool isn't perfect when you start thinking up unrealistic scenarios.

Since you want to downplay fall force, you should video yourself falling 3' on static rope so we can all see it's not a big deal.

yes i lead trad.. although this last year was the first year I got back into climbing after taking a long break due to elbow issues. Mostly did TR but with 1 really easy sport route (although that was just so i could access the bluff top to set up a TR on another route) but yes when I was younger lots of Trads and sport routs.

And what do you mean there is no Belay? yes there is unless your free soloing you have the belayer feeding you rope as you climb and place gear.. The total distance between the climber and the belay is the total bungee effect once you fall.

There is no point it arguing about it its in the description of what the calculator does.. "The fall factor is the ratio of the distance you fall to the length of the rope"

 

[Nutterbuster]

This will now be the third time it’s been asked of him, I doubt we’ll get a response. For the folks who have no idea what’s going on, and are trying to understand - please don’t try falling 3’ in a saddle, anchored by static rope. You will regret it.

You can't tell me what to do! Lol

I don't need a calculator to tell me a 4 foot fall would probably require more than an advil and a beer to forget about. My back hurts just thinking about it!

 

[dbldrew]

This will now be the third time it’s been asked of him, I doubt we’ll get a response. For the folks who have no idea what’s going on, and are trying to understand - please don’t try falling 3’ in a saddle, anchored by static rope. You will regret it.

I would not want to fall 3' on a static rope. but I would be confident that it would stop my fall even though it would be very uncomfortable..

 

[Aeds151]

How much feet is slacked in a rope doing one stick/hand climber method? I might be screwed. Also, is it better to fall with a LB or a few ft with a tether? Hard to say what will happen with a LB as you could get impaled by sticks or whatever. Im just trying to reevaluate saddle hunting for myself.


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[kyler1945]

I would not want to fall 3' on a static rope. but I would be confident that it would stop my fall even though it would be very uncomfortable..

You put math in your post, specifically stating that a 4' fall from a table would only generate 800lbs of force (I think you technically said 800 ft-lbs) for a 200lb man. OSHA guidelines prohibit falls that generate over 900lbs of force for workers wearing body belts/belt style harnesses. That's the upper limit of what a typical guy can handle without causing injury. According to your math, that fall would generate less force than what a whole bunch of smart people say is an upper limit that will prevent injury. And you are flat out wrong, and by a lot.

For folks who don't "think" they know what they are talking about, and are trying to understand - If you fall four feet, tied into static rope, with a saddle, you will probably break your back. Don't do it.

See the problem with bad math, and even worse, a flawed understanding of bad math, is that it can kill you. Putting your poor understanding of poor math on the internet for a bunch of people to read, and who don't know better, could kill them.

Please stop making claims like this. Someone will misinterpret what you're saying, or worse yet, believe you, and kill themselves.


Yes, for 99% of folks, 99% of what we are doing with saddles, and ropes, and climbing, won't cause a problem. But there are tens of thousands of people doing this, with little to no understanding of ropes, math, falls, the whole thing. 1% of that group is enough people to make it irresponsible to put your opinion on this subject out there with such arrogance.


Someone is going to die saddle hunting. Threads like this are why. This is not the place to try and win points for acting like you know what you're talking about.

 

[bj139]

I have always used SRT/RADS while hunting and have never had more than a few inches of slack in my dual tethers. I have used dynamic or static rope alternately and have only noticed a bit of rubber banding with dynamic rope near the ground. All the same to me. I feel safe and never worry about my rubber boots slipping on a foothold.

 

[powhound84]

And what do you mean there is no Belay?

I meant in saddle hunting there is no belay. The bottom line is this: A 3' fall on an ascender with static rope is probably going to damage your gear and/or result in injury. Worst case, complete failure. Friction hitches lessen the peak load in the event of a fall and are less likely to fail.

 

[scpokevin]

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but while using a ropeman on my tether while one-sticking am I okay backing it up with a prussic (above the ropeman). I also have a ripstop/screamer to give my prussic more room to grab in case the ropeman shears the tether

 

[mattsteg]

Excuse my ignorance on the subject, but while using a ropeman on my tether while one-sticking am I okay backing it up with a prussic (above the ropeman). I also have a ripstop/screamer to give my prussic more room to grab in case the ropeman shears the tether

If the rope/sheath is cut - what would the prusik grab on to? Backing up a ropeman is problematic without a completely independent rope, because any ropeman failure occurs in a manner that would specifically compromise a backup on the same rope.

 

[Nutterbuster]

If the rope/sheath is cut - what would the prusik grab on to? Backing up a ropeman is problematic without a completely independent rope, because any ropeman failure occurs in a manner that would specifically compromise a backup on the same rope.

Yep. Also, you lose the only appeal of the device...convenience.

 

[ImThere]

You put math in your post, specifically stating that a 4' fall from a table would only generate 800lbs of force (I think you technically said 800 ft-lbs) for a 200lb man. OSHA guidelines prohibit falls that generate over 900lbs of force for workers wearing body belts/belt style harnesses. That's the upper limit of what a typical guy can handle without causing injury. According to your math, that fall would generate less force than what a whole bunch of smart people say is an upper limit that will prevent injury. And you are flat out wrong, and by a lot.

For folks who don't "think" they know what they are talking about, and are trying to understand - If you fall four feet, tied into static rope, with a saddle, you will probably break your back. Don't do it.

See the problem with bad math, and even worse, a flawed understanding of bad math, is that it can kill you. Putting your poor understanding of poor math on the internet for a bunch of people to read, and who don't know better, could kill them.

Please stop making claims like this. Someone will misinterpret what you're saying, or worse yet, believe you, and kill themselves.


Yes, for 99% of folks, 99% of what we are doing with saddles, and ropes, and climbing, won't cause a problem. But there are tens of thousands of people doing this, with little to no understanding of ropes, math, falls, the whole thing. 1% of that group is enough people to make it irresponsible to put your opinion on this subject out there with such arrogance.


Someone is going to die saddle hunting. Threads like this are why. This is not the place to try and win points for acting like you know what you're talking about.

so I'm a 1%'er!!! awesome!!!! wait that may not be a good thing! dang I thought I was special! found out I am! lol

 

[ImThere]

so by reading this thread I can use a 19' tether when i'm done hunting I can just jump out of the tree and stand up and walk away? or is my math wrong?

 

[dbldrew]

Htp 9mm stretches 0.8% at 300 lb. i use this rope, so i used it to ballpark loading.
Oplux 8mm is a 3.3% @ 300lb.
Predator is 3% at 270kg. so 1.5%ish at 300lb.

At 80kg these are likely stretching around .5%-2% ballpark. For a 10 ft length with some rounding that's around .5-2.5 in. For 3 ft? Less than an inch all around. How is this close to a foot? And for a ropeman there's little point in looking at elongation beyond a 4kn load because the rope sheath will fail.

that 80kg is just for the rating, so a 3.3% @ 300lbs will have a much higher % at 900lbs, so if you are generating ballpark 800-900lbs from a fall you are probably very close or even surpassing the 1' mark that the calculator is using.

Honestly this is kind of pointless, because really for this to ever be an issue you would have to A attach your ropeman at the bottom of your tether, and B remove your linemans belt and NOT tighten your tether.. and then transition onto your platform and fall.. Kind of an absurd scenario to be worried about.

 

[powhound84]

so by reading this thread I can use a 19" tether when i'm done hunting I can just jump out of the tree and stand up and walk away? or is my math wrong?

You can probably do without the tether if you're only 19" off the ground

 

[ImThere]

You can probably do without the tether if you're only 19" off the ground

dang 19' lol but with all that rope strech it might need to be pretty short

 

[dbldrew]

You put math in your post, specifically stating that a 4' fall from a table would only generate 800lbs of force (I think you technically said 800 ft-lbs) for a 200lb man. OSHA guidelines prohibit falls that generate over 900lbs of force for workers wearing body belts/belt style harnesses. That's the upper limit of what a typical guy can handle without causing injury. According to your math, that fall would generate less force than what a whole bunch of smart people say is an upper limit that will prevent injury. And you are flat out wrong, and by a lot.

For folks who don't "think" they know what they are talking about, and are trying to understand - If you fall four feet, tied into static rope, with a saddle, you will probably break your back. Don't do it.

See the problem with bad math, and even worse, a flawed understanding of bad math, is that it can kill you. Putting your poor understanding of poor math on the internet for a bunch of people to read, and who don't know better, could kill them.

Please stop making claims like this. Someone will misinterpret what you're saying, or worse yet, believe you, and kill themselves.


Yes, for 99% of folks, 99% of what we are doing with saddles, and ropes, and climbing, won't cause a problem. But there are tens of thousands of people doing this, with little to no understanding of ropes, math, falls, the whole thing. 1% of that group is enough people to make it irresponsible to put your opinion on this subject out there with such arrogance.


Someone is going to die saddle hunting. Threads like this are why. This is not the place to try and win points for acting like you know what you're talking about.

i quoted math in my post that then revealed that a 4' fall generated 24,000lbs so i kind of figured that that website was a bit off as well