Saddle Hunting Safety - What do you think?

[g2outdoors]

Talking safety with respect to Saddle Hunting is very nuanced. Since we are a very small community, and haven't been around very long, I believe there is some grey area concerning safety in a Saddle.

What we generally do as a community is lean on the rock climbing & arborist safety guidelines since those most closely relate to what we do. However, that's not an exact science. It's also not a totally fair comparison because of the dynamic vs static nature of what we do in trees. Arborists are constantly moving around and using sharp heavy tools to trim/prune/remove the tree they're in. Rock climbers are very dynamic in their movements and are expecting to fall. Their gear is designed for this type of abuse.

As saddle hunters we're not dynamic at all and we never expect to fall. The most dynamic move I make in a tree is transitioning from my climbing method to my platform. And sometimes even that is as simple as making a step.

How do you guys think we should approach safety? Should we embrace overkill like rock climbers? Should we be OK with a reduced safety threshold? I realize there is no single right answer to the question. I'm interested in what you all think.

I'd like for this thread to be a calm discussion about safety. If you get out of control, I have no doubt Red will smack you back in line.

 

[DaveT1963]

I use risk based decision process I learned in the military.

I identify a risk (for example climbing up tree with sticks)
I identify known risks - sharp pointed steps, falling while transitioning, etc...
I come up with countermeasures - Use rounded stick steps (i.e. helium sticks), I wear a lineman's belt at all times, I use a secondary rope to allow for climbing around branches, etc.
I accept some risk - I could get hurt while lineman's belt slides down tree, slams me into trunk/sticks....
Final risk mitigation: slow DOWN, take time and use proper stick, lineman's belt, inspect equipment before each hunt and replace worn parts annually.

Just how I go through the process.

 

[Chistavocat]

Most safety guidelines/regulations were brought on by not only the potential for accidents but known accidents that have happened and a means to prevent further occurrences. This is where some of the overkill comes from. This community as a whole has accumulated countless hours performing a variety of ascending and descending techniques as well as “hanging” techniques and equipment, in the field hunting, practicing and exploring various options without any serious injuries that we (or I) know of. Some minor “accidents” have occurred but due to the equipment used those accidents have been reduced to scrapes and bruises and have limited major injuries. I say that is a darn good track record. Without regulation, and we all know there are plenty of those, safety and risk are in the hands of the user. I feel as long as your equipment is inspected for wear on a somewhat regular basis and you are connected to the tree if your equipment should fail, the risk is about as low as it can get considering what we are doing, how we are doing it, along with the high strength of ropes,straps, and webbing used. I think safety is approached very seriously on this site and although some methods used may not be comfortable for others to employ, the incident rate speaks for itself. As far as a reduced safety threshold, there really are no guidelines set other than the intended use manufactures set for equipment being sold to cover themselves from being liable for injury.

Just the other day I was thinking of asking “how many people have had a safety related incident, what happened, and how could it have been prevented? Not trying to derail your thread but I would like to hear about actual occurrences. This may help us understand where other safety concerns are may be that we should be prepared for, if any.


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[g2outdoors]

I was thinking of asking “how many people have had a safety related incident, what happened, and how could it have been prevented?

This is a good suggestion. I can't think of anyone that has been injured as a result of saddle hunting. I know a few have taken "falls" but their gear has prevented serious injury.

If you have had an accident/fall/slip please post it here as well.

 

[SouthMsBowhunter]

I posted this on your other thread...

“g2 if anything your experience has kept the awareness factor up front and center. And it would be good that each time someone has one of these risk factor that they bring it to the table that others can learn from their experience. What happened? What was the result? What was done to rectify or resolve the issue? AND What can be done to prevent future issues?”

Maybe add a “Sticky” for logging safety accidents and have a format like above that member can fill out (voluntary of course) so others can learn from.

 

[Apex7]

I started back when the tree suit was first introduced. I have always gone with saddles that were manufactured. I think safty should be taken very seriously and over kill to me means it's as safe as it can be. A big part of safty is taking your time and inspecting your equipment no matter if it's manufacture by New Tribe or any other company or if it's a sit&drag.

 

[IkemanTX]

My personal opinion (which is worth as much as you pay for it) is to take every REASONABLE precaution. The word reasonable there is very ambiguous, I know. I don’t think we should take our gear to the extremes that climbers do. They routinely have falls of many feet before their gear is expected to arrest it. This means very high shock loading.

One of the safety factors I believe most in is something I wrote about in the thread about @g2outdoors falling, and that is...
KEEP AS LITTLE SLACK AS POSSIBLE.

As mentioned above, climbers routinely climb with several feet of slack in their rope due to the dynamic movements required for their sport. This means every fall tests their equipment to the extreme. We, on the other hand, need only enough movement to position for a shot or to step from our climbing method to our platform. The only slack I have when climbing is the fall distance required to bind the linesman belt. I don’t let it fall slack. Typically both of my hands are on my linesman belt, both to keep tension and to flip it up the tree.

Most of our falls are not true unrestrained arrests either. Tethers and linesman belts will swing you into the trunk. This means that a lot of the potential energy gets absorbed by the tree upon impact, and not in the gear load itself. We don’t start with a straight fall in the first place. Take traditional treestands as an example... Commercial HSS harnesses are attached with between 1 and 2 feet of extra tether. This means that you start off with 12-24” minimum of open free fall. That is a TON of loading on a strap and harness.


I feel that our style of hunting is inherently safer than both rock climbing AND traditional stands. (Even in conjunction with properly applied HSS systems) the almost constant loading on our gear makes it HIGHLY unlikely that we will experience high shock loads. Because of this, I feel that most of our gear is overkill by several orders of magnitude.

I would really like to see some computer simulations to see what kinds of forces our potential fall types. I think the low numbers would really surprise us.


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[redsquirrel]

Talking safety with respect to Saddle Hunting is very nuanced. Since we are a very small community, and haven't been around very long, I believe there is some grey area concerning safety in a Saddle.

What we generally do as a community is lean on the rock climbing & arborist safety guidelines since those most closely relate to what we do. However, that's not an exact science. It's also not a totally fair comparison because of the dynamic vs static nature of what we do in trees. Arborists are constantly moving around and using sharp heavy tools to trim/prune/remove the tree they're in. Rock climbers are very dynamic in their movements and are expecting to fall. Their gear is designed for this type of abuse.

As saddle hunters we're not dynamic at all and we never expect to fall. The most dynamic move I make in a tree is transitioning from my climbing method to my platform. And sometimes even that is as simple as making a step.

How do you guys think we should approach safety? Should we embrace overkill like rock climbers? Should we be OK with a reduced safety threshold? I realize there is no single right answer to the question. I'm interested in what you all think.

I'd like for this thread to be a calm discussion about safety. If you get out of control, I have no doubt Red will smack you back in line.

I think we all know how I feel about safety, but I'll chime in with some thoughts here.

I do think we can compare ourselves to arborists more closely than rock climbers. I don't think arborists are expecting to fall like rock climbers. I think they are prepared for a fall, but not expecting it. That is very similar to us. We are in a static position and we are not expecting to fall, but I think we should be prepared for it. There is a reason that so much life safety equipment is over engineered, basically it is better to play it safe than sorry. You often can not take it back if something fails that is part of your life safety equipment. This equipment is engineered to minimize the chance of failure, but to also give you a chance at getting away with it if it does fail. I use an example like this frequently, but it is a good simplistic example. Let's compare 2 extremes, you have a tether made from 11mm climbing rope rated for 6000 pounds and another tether made out of 550 paracord. Is the paracord strong enough to hold you? Sure. But If somehow a piece of your tether were to get cut halfway through and compromised, the 11mm is probably going to give you the opportunity to get down out of the tree safely. If the paracord was cut halfway through there is a much higher risk of it failing completely now. I know this is an extreme example but it shows the benefits of over engineering this stuff, which is really just building in an extra margin for safety. For anyone to commercially manufacture this stuff, they have to have those margins built in just to be able to sell it. I do not think that our stuff needs to be as rugged as the arborist equipment, but I do think safety factors are important.

Moving on specifically to DIY stuff. We all want to come home to see our families at night. I have full faith in the stuff that I DIY and I evaluate everything at home before I consider taking it into the woods. Everything that I use includes some sort of safety margin. I have had a lot of ideas that sounded good and then there I am hanging off the cement pole in my garage saying that it is just not worth it and I don't feel comfortable with it. Personally I feel better with my DIY equipment than most commercially manufactured stuff because I know it's rating and any limitations.

The final point on safety I want to make is that we have to remember why this stuff is usually over engineered. For example, @g2outdoors and I have been doing DIY stuff basically since this site came into existence. We are very comfortable with what we know and know the limitations of our gear. There are lots of new members coming to the site without that experience, and probably many more who just pass by and read the site and get ideas. I think it is very very important to stress higher safety limits for the people who are not as informed and experienced as many of the people who have been around here for a while.

I personally want to see every saddle user come home every time they go out.

 

[Nutterbuster]

Awesome thread. I'll be watching this one closely. I remember when I first read about saddle hunting I thought, "No way!" Then I started reading up on it and realized that most of the gear people were using was actually stronger than any of my climbers.

I have gradually grown pretty comfortable with the system and am now in that "testing the fence" stage. Seems a lot of folks are. It's kind of like ultralite backpackers. I remember reading about the first person who thruhiked the AT in running shoes. People had a fit, and then everybody started doing it. Saddle hunting was born from the desire to go lighter and faster, and I think people are going to keep chasing that lighter pack weight. I know I am.

But just like with ultralighting, at some part you start acquiring excessive risk. People have gotten hurt going out with gear that just was not adequate for the conditions. I hope that doesn't happen to anybody on here, myself included.

We all assume risk. Each individual has to decide where they fall between, "I stay my a$$ on the ground where the Good Lord put me" and "They just put that on there to keep the lawyers happy."

Just my thoughts.

 

[ImThere]

I honestly worry more about twisting my ankle walking to the tree than any equipment failure. I keep all my equipment in perfect condition not good enough condition but perfect. I believe this mitigates a great number of potential failures. every thing i do from the time my feet leave the ground until i reach the ground again is slow and deliberate

 

[g2outdoors]

It's kind of like ultralite backpackers. I remember reading about the first person who thruhiked the AT in running shoes. People had a fit, and then everybody started doing it.

That is a FANTASTIC analogy. I remember making the transition to ultralight hammock backpacking. At first I couldn't believe I was leaving certain items at home. But I quickly learned that I didn't really need it. There's a huge difference in perceived and actual risk. There's a saying in the hiking world that people "pack their fears". That's how some hikers end up with 60lb packs when a 10lb would have been sufficient.

That brings up a good point. Is the guy with a 60lb pack any safer than the 10lb pack? Is the ultralighter wrong for being confident with 10?

Good post @Nutterbuster - there is a line between confidence and hubris. Good discussion.

 

[KartShot]

Safety is one of the driving factors for me to get into saddle hunting. I'm looking for the best combination of safety and convenience I can get. My idea of "convenience" while trying to be safe with a hangon is not a tradoff that I find enjoyable and am really willing to do. I plan on using my modded sit-drag without a rock harness and for me I think it's an acceptable level of both safety and convenience. Yes it's not as safe as wearing the rock harness along with the sit drag, but it's also not hanging a hangon without being attached or being unattached durring my transition or any other time. So, I think I will be more consistent in my safety at a level of convenience that I will actually adhere to.

 

[redsquirrel]

That is a FANTASTIC analogy. I remember making the transition to ultralight hammock backpacking. At first I couldn't believe I was leaving certain items at home. But I quickly learned that I didn't really need it. There's a huge difference in perceived and actual risk. There's a saying in the hiking world that people "pack their fears". That's how some hikers end up with 60lb packs when a 10lb would have been sufficient.

That brings up a good point. Is the guy with a 60lb pack any safer than the 10lb pack? Is the ultralighter wrong for being confident with 10?

Good post @Nutterbuster - there is a line between confidence and hubris. Good discussion.

I don't think anyone is saying that the 10 pound pack is not safe. But there may be a difference between Pack A that is 10 pounds and safe and Pack B that is 10 pounds and unsafe.

Isn't that what we've been striving for on this site? To find the "10 pound pack" that is safe also?

 

[g2outdoors]

I don't think anyone is saying that the 10 pound pack is not safe. But there may be a difference between Pack A that is 10 pounds and safe and Pack B that is 10 pounds and unsafe.

Oh I know no one is saying that. I didn't mean that in an argumentative way. Hopefully it didn't come across that way. Just wanting to get feedback. And I COMPLETELY AGREE with your point that not all 10lb packs are equal. Furthermore, some situations call for a 22lb pack, or maybe even a 5lb pack.

Isn't that what we've been striving for on this site? To find the "10 pound pack" that is safe also?

Yup.

 

[redsquirrel]

Oh I know no one is saying that. I didn't mean that in an argumentative way. Hopefully it didn't come across that way. Just wanting to get feedback. And I COMPLETELY AGREE with your point that not all 10lb packs are equal. Furthermore, some situations call for a 22lb pack, or maybe even a 5lb pack.



Yup.

I was thinking about it as I drove. I didn’t mean it argumentative either. I was more focused on the last line.

 

[Joshua2236]

I think everything needs a back up. I could have my sit drag with no back up but I do. I will have a back up prussic on my tether just in case my carabiner fails. Also have a rock climbing harness if my sit drag fails. I am going to buy a kestrel but I wonder if anyone wears their kestrel with a rock climbing harness? Arborists and rock climbers don't have a back up harness is what I keep thinking about but to each his own.

 

[donnieballgame]

I concur, a place to keep track of incidents and more importantly the lessons learned would be a great resource for everyone.

The other important thing and currently we have this but I think it is with mentioning. I come from military aviation, where this is critical and cam and will save lives. The community or culture we've(Red, g2, etc.) created needs to be one where folks are willing and eager to share their experiences/incidents, and everyone benefits from it.

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[Boomstick300]

I think another overlooked issue is the time and distance factor to safety and ways to mitigate that. Assuming all our equipment functions as advertised-what do you have in place if you find yourself immobile a good ways back due to an unforeseen and freak accident (because that’s how they all happen)... Fortunately or unfortunately I have 2 cells one personal and one for work. I keep one in my pack and one in my person and have a SPOT Messenger on my person. Maybe overkill but if you search around some of the forums about a Bow Release getting caught in a Yamaha Grizzly 700 throttle cable you will see freak accidents happen out of nowhere in the middle of nowhere. I made it out alright but that made me think about this specific topic and the purchase of a SPOT.

 

[boyne bowhunter]

I agree, this is a great thread and one I also will be following closely. Obviously most of us feel that the saddle is inherently safer is that we need to be attached directly to the tree to hang in a saddle.

Perhaps one of the overlooked reasons that the saddle hunting community has fewer accidents is that our hunting and/or climbing methods are not as mainstream and we don't take the safety of our setups for granted. For instance, there are significant number of accidents from traditional tree stand failures where the user was not tied in because they were trusting that their commercial tree stand would not fail them.

Often for saddle hunters the setups are unique and individualized and extra care and redundant methods are employed to assure our safety. Not that its right, but I know personally I pay more attention to safety, tree connections, and gear condition when I'm hunting from the saddle than I do when I'm using my climber (please don't hold the climber use against me).

 

[sureshotscott]

I would really like to see some computer simulations to see what kinds of forces our potential fall types. I think the low numbers would really surprise us.
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Good thoughts. I'd like to see destructive testing (recorded) for more hunting equipment (tree climbing gear especially) like some in the firearms world publish, like this