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Saddle legality.

swampsnyper said:
Just don’t raise attention to it and continue hunting with the saddle. If you are questioned. Put it on and hang upside down from the tree. If they still write you a ticket, they were gonna find something to write you a ticket for anyway.
If attention is drawn, they will require saddles to be made with shoulder straps and be TMA approved. Saddle prices will go up even more and we will be stuck wearing saddles with shoulder straps. Then decide to cut them off and be back to square one but with a more expensive saddle.
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I don't know about you guys but I've never seen a DNR officer out in the woods in the entire time I've hunted. They're usually out driving around checking licenses at the parking lots, but never in the woods.
 
DaveT1963 said:
I seriously doubt it would stand up in court that a saddle is not a full body fall restraint device - long history of use in the arborist community. probably some liber whacko interpretation of the law. And I would like to see someone explain how it is not a full body harness - does your head or a limb detach and hit the ground - it either prevents a fall or it does not.

I could see a sharp defense attorney asking the prosecutor to please stand up and "demonstrate how a saddle would not protect a whole body. Specifically, please demonstrate how it is a partial body fall restraint system." What a crock.
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I believe it would hold up in court unless the judge got a chuckle out of it (which is a distinct possibility).

A 5 point, full body harness is absolutely necessary in some industries, and the reason so many regs specify them is because waist belts, which are superficially almost identical to saddles, killed and crippled a lot of hunters back when climbing stands were becoming a thing. Fall with slack in a waist harness while leaning out facing away from the tree on a platform, and you can wreck your back.

Obviously, we don't use saddles that way. But change comes slow to the deep south.
 
Nutterbuster said:
I hate you guys! lol. I've been staying out of this one, but since everybody and their cousin is @ing me...

"To hunt from an elevated stand or platform without attaching
themselves to the tree or platform with a full body safety harness"
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That’s even worse. So I can attach my full body harness to the top half of my climber and be safer than a saddle. I’ve heard of more summit cables breaking than predator platforms(there’s a bunch more or there probably 100,000:1 ratio).
 
Nutterbuster said:
I believe it would hold up in court unless the judge got a chuckle out of it (which is a distinct possibility).

A 5 point, full body harness is absolutely necessary in some industries, and the reason so many regs specify them is because waist belts, which are superficially almost identical to saddles, killed and crippled a lot of hunters back when climbing stands were becoming a thing. Fall with slack in a waist harness while leaning out facing away from the tree on a platform, and you can wreck your back.

Obviously, we don't use saddles that way. But change comes slow to the deep south.
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I vote for @Nutterbuster to be our stereotypical southern lawyer defending all things saddles in court!
 
Seems to me one of the best places to start is at your local State Bowhunting Organization. I hope you all belong to yours. Here in Michigan, Michigan Bow Hunters Assn. are the ones responsible for most of the accommodations we bowhunters in Michigan enjoy.
 
Weldabeast said:
If i was worried about it is just throw a cheap-o, junk tma approved harness in the bottom of my bag and forget about it. If they ever ask pull, that harness out and let them inspect it
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Exactly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
@DaveT1963 I'm just going off of what I know from talking to Alabama and Mississipi DCNR officials, TMA representatives, treestand manufacturers, and some old timers who were around when treestands started becoming a thing. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it's my understanding of the situation.

A rope around your neck would hold your full body. Probably keep you from suing the state too! It's a goofy rule, but full body is usually synonymous with 5 points, and a saddle is not a full body, 5 point harness. That's why the trophyline had shoulder straps, to make it TMA approved and legal in states that required full body harnesses.

Change does come that slowly in Alabama, especially in the tiny, conservative, insignificant hunting community. We were slow to start killing does again, slow to implement a buck limit, still don't issue tags, and just legalized baiting this year. We still have dry counties, and a lady still cant walk downtown in the capital in heels on a Sunday. It's a blessing and a curse.

Also, I'm definitely not old enough to require a waste belt...Or a catheter....and I've never worn a waist belt in a treestand... ;)
 
Nutterbuster said:
@DaveT1963 I'm just going off of what I know from talking to Alabama and Mississipi DCNR officials, TMA representatives, treestand manufacturers, and some old timers who were around when treestands started becoming a thing. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it's my understanding of the situation.

A rope around your neck would hold your full body. Probably keep you from suing the state too! It's a goofy rule, but full body is usually synonymous with 5 points, and a saddle is not a full body, 5 point harness. That's why the trophyline had shoulder straps, to make it TMA approved and legal in states that required full body harnesses.

Change does come that slowly in Alabama, especially in the tiny, conservative, insignificant hunting community. We were slow to start killing does again, slow to implement a buck limit, still don't issue tags, and just legalized baiting this year. We still have dry counties, and a lady still cant walk downtown in the capital in heels on a Sunday. It's a blessing and a curse.

Also, I'm definitely not old enough to require a waste belt...Or a catheter....and I've never worn a waist belt in a treestand... ;)
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no blaming or pointing at you.
That's the thing about laws, they can be challenged and at times should be. The hangman's noose has a long history as a full body restraint device.... I would also say it was pretty effective at producing the desired outcome.... same with saddles ;)
 
@DaveT1963 I’m sure somewhere on the law books there is a definition of what a full body harness consists of. If there’s not your are correct about the saddle sufficiently counting as a full body harness. But I almost guarantee that somewhere in some paragraph of this s subsection or an appendix it describes just what is considered to be a full body harness according to Alabama law. Then failure to wear a harness makes you guilty of breaking such law and it would stand up in court. Stupid laws stand up in court all the time. Even when it’s admitted that it’s a stupid law. That doesn’t excuse someone from breaking it. That doesn’t make it right or justified but there would be a clear law and you’d clearly be breaking it. I would play dumb (not that hard) and either pay the fine or go to court if ticketed.
 
It really would not be that hard to get a copy of the law and a does exact Definition of what a fall restraint harness is. Whole lot of assuming going on here
 
sureshotscott said:
Could be correlation and/or causation.
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Or that other insidious c word...coincidence!!

I doubt those companies have anything to do with it. I think it's just an antiquated law that made great sense when it was passed.

Although, it's not exactly an old law. I remember when it showed up on the books. Maybe 10-12 years ago? I think we forget how unsafe most of the hunting body still is with conventional treestands. I still know WAY too many folks who will jack themselves 40ft up a pine in an Old Man or Summit with 0 harness.

Those guys way outnumber us saddlehunters. It makes sense to write regs for the folks in the middle of the bell curve I suppose.
 
Nutterbuster said:
Or that other insidious c word...coincidence!!

I doubt those companies have anything to do with it. I think it's just an antiquated law that made great sense when it was passed.

Although, it's not exactly an old law. I remember when it showed up on the books. Maybe 10-12 years ago? I think we forget how unsafe most of the hunting body still is with conventional treestands. I still know WAY too many folks who will jack themselves 40ft up a pine in an Old Man or Summit with 0 harness.

Those guys way outnumber us saddlehunters. It makes sense to write regs for the folks in the middle of the bell curve I suppose.
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True that..... Of all the other hunters I've seen on public with climbers not 1 had a harness
 
Weldabeast said:
True that..... Of all the other hunters I've seen on public with climbers not 1 had a harness
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Yep. I think the law was well-intentioned by the folks who presented it, served a self-serving and ulterior purpose for the folks who actually passed it, and is ultimately ineffective and dumb.


You know, kinda like most laws. ;)

I'm sure that once saddles hit mainstream and have published standards, they'll revisit it. Might only take them 20 years or so...
 
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