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Saddle safety PSA

raisins said:
People use shady logic because they like saddle hunting so much that it also must be safer as well. The shady logic is comparing typical/bad tree stand safety practices to correct saddle hunting practices.
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Yes and no. The problem is the data isn’t there. Statistically even if done properly, saddles have way less injury and death rates than treestands…. but how many people truly report saddle falls? I know I didn’t report my little climbing stick cut out/ short fall to anyone because I wasn’t badly hurt. I know others who have slipped off their platforms and swung into the tree, receiving only bumps and bruises so they didn’t report anything either. Factor in also when a tree stand fails, it’s often catastrophic with a longer drop because the tether or tree strap, is usually set lower so you can sit comfortably in the stand, without pressure if you lean forward to shoot. Let’s say you fall, then the harness catches you. You can control fall forces based on how high your tree strap is, but you have zero control of what angle you fall at, and you have a short recovery window before trauma from blood build up. So from a purely reported statistic saddles are currently safer. If used properly, they will also have no slack for any truly serious fall forces to occur if your platform cuts out or you slip ect….
Finally, Add in that saddles are relatively new compared to tree stand use (even though some form of saddle hunting is 40 years old) and I take all these stats with a grain of salt. Do I think saddles are safer than the old stand and harness method? No (especially not one stickers) but I think if properly used at all times, you have the ability to be safer in a saddle, if that makes sense.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Yes and no. The problem is the data isn’t there. Statistically even if done properly, saddles have way less injury and death rates than treestands…. but how many people truly report saddle falls? I know I didn’t report my little climbing stick cut out/ short fall to anyone because I wasn’t badly hurt. I know others who have slipped off their platforms and swung into the tree, receiving only bumps and bruises so they didn’t report anything either. Factor in also when a tree stand fails, it’s often catastrophic with a longer drop because the tether or tree strap, is usually set lower so you can sit comfortably in the stand, without pressure if you lean forward to shoot. Let’s say you fall, then the harness catches you. You can control fall forces based on how high your tree strap is, but you have zero control of what angle you fall at, and you have a short recovery window before trauma from blood build up. So from a purely reported statistic saddles are currently safer. If used properly, they will also have no slack for any truly serious fall forces to occur if your platform cuts out or you slip ect….
Finally, Add in that saddles are relatively new compared to tree stand use (even though some form of saddle hunting is 40 years old) and I take all these stats with a grain of salt. Do I think saddles are safer than the old stand and harness method? No (especially not one stickers) but I think if properly used at all times, you have the ability to be safer in a saddle, if that makes sense.
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I'd be curious what you would think about a good saddle hunter in a tree stand (knows about falls and how to manage slack) and using a dynamic tree strap and a rock climbing harness (instead of the muddy style 5 point harnesses that support you from your groin and not behind).

The reason why I think it is a wash for me is that with the stand, I have the stand holding me and then the rocking climbing harness as a backup (redundance).

To get the same effect with a saddle, I climb with lineman's lanyard and tether and then run a slightly slack backup tether that is not attached to my bridge (saddle is redundant unless the webbing of the saddle breaks).
 
BTaylor said:
I might seriously argue it is not shady logic for the exact same reason's you mention. Saddle hunting forces the use of some amount of safety gear and some amount of knowledge of how to properly use it. Treestands dont and for many of us that pre-date safety gear of any kind related to treestand hunting, saddle hunting is by far the safest we have been hunting elevated.
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I'd wanna keep everything the same except the equipment.

One of us in a saddle vs one of us using best practices possible and a rock climbing harness in a stand.

If you start changing too many things (what the user knows) then it isn't a fair comparison anymore.
 
neonomad said:
If I am climbing a tree with a climber and a tether / descent safety system and one system fails I have a backup system. Sticks and saddle approach generally has no redundancy. You got busy through the season and your custom friction knot loosened, that’s it… that kinda thing. Cut one rope for any reason you’re probably going down. Climbing with sticks is also inherently dangerous. Agree, if you use no safety gear with another system, that system is more dangerous but with proper safety gear the other methods are just as safe if not safer.
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i try to always have an independent backup with the saddle, both climbing and at height.....the only single point of failure is if the webbing of my saddle broke and i fell out the back of it
 
raisins said:
I'd be curious what you would think about a good saddle hunter in a tree stand (knows about falls and how to manage slack) and using a dynamic tree strap and a rock climbing harness (instead of the muddy style 5 point harnesses that support you from your groin and not behind).

The reason why I think it is a wash for me is that with the stand, I have the stand holding me and then the rocking climbing harness as a backup (redundance).

To get the same effect with a saddle, I climb with lineman's lanyard and tether and then run a slightly slack backup tether that is not attached to my bridge (saddle is redundant unless the webbing of the saddle breaks).
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Just so I understand, are you using the tree stand as a normal tree stand (sitting knees out facing away from the tree)? Or are you using the tree stand as a saddle style platform with the seat up as knee protection? The reason a RCH or a saddle isn’t the right fit for a tree stand fall restraint is that a) it isn’t a 5 pt harness to keep you upright in a fall, and b) and in my mind the most prevalent danger that the connection point would still be in front of you but your connection to the tree would be behind you. This is the part people don’t talk about. Yes dynamic line would soften your fall. Yes you can adjust some saddles to make sure that you stay mostly upright in a fall, but if your connection point to the tree is behind you, and your connection point of the harness is in your front facing away from the tree, the you will either end up with a tether pinning you violently across your chest or neck in a fall, or you will end up with it violently whipping you around to be facing the tree. That type of twist can and probably will break your spine and cause internal damage. Neither of those scenarios are safe and both are highly probable should a fall occur. That’s why these RCH’s being promoted as a tree stand safety harness is complete garbage. Chances are you might not fall. The stand or strap might never malfunction or fail. But with a fall it only takes once. Saddles used properly have little to no slack in the system and you are facing the point of connection. This is the basis of a work positioning harness.
 
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There are approximately 10 million tree stand users in North America according to DDH. I would guess, conservatively, that there are at most 10,000 saddle hunters in NA. This means that tree stand hunters outnumber saddle hunters by 1000 to 1, currently.

So any stats related to tree stand injuries vs. saddle injuries are completely insignificant if trying to show that saddles are safer than tree stands. It is simply not possible to compare that data with those numbers. Not even close.
 
Spartan said:
There are approximately 10 million tree stand users in North America according to DDH. I would guess, conservatively, that there are at most 10,000 saddle hunters in NA. This means that tree stand hunters outnumber saddle hunters by 1000 to 1, currently.

So any stats related to tree stand injuries vs. saddle injuries are completely insignificant if trying to show that saddles are safer than tree stands. It is simply not possible to compare that data with those numbers. Not even close.
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I’m going to say that number is very low based on stick, saddle and platform numbers across the industry. Tethrd, Cruzr, Trophy Line, Latitude, LWCG, OOAL, Timber Ninja and down the line are selling way more product than 10,000 saddle hunters need. After the hunting public mentioned it causing the rogan effect, saddle hunting easily went way above 10,000. But I still like to say we are the ultra high speed SEALs of the trees compared to those troglodyte heathens carrying climbers. (Pinky out as I say this in a fine British accent).
 
Zero One Actual said:
I’m going to say that number is very low based on stick, saddle and platform numbers across the industry. Tethrd, Cruzr, Trophy Line, Latitude, LWCG, OOAL, Timber Ninja and down the line are selling way more product than 10,000 saddle hunters need. After the hunting public mentioned it causing the rogan effect, saddle hunting easily went way above 10,000. But I still like to say we are the ultra high speed SEALs of the trees compared to those troglodyte heathens carrying climbers. (Pinky out as I say this in a fine British accent).
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Yeah, but how many of those saddle makers are selling saddles to the same customer? I know I'm one of those :laughing:

But you certainly could be right. 10k was just a WAG. But even if it was 50k, the treestand hunter to saddle hunter ratio would still be 200 to 1. And still untenable numbers for comparison.
 
neonomad said:
I saddle hunt, but I don’t believe the hype that saddle + sticks is the safest method to hunt. Performed with certain methods it can be about as safe as other tree stand methods performed with certain methods. I get the sense that some of the safety assumptions are pushed by folks in their 20s that haven’t fully thought things through yet, and don’t yet fully grasp death and injury. Glad this situation worked out though!
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Hype is hype till the hype isn't hype anymore.... doesn't matter how you hunt as long as your happy and understand the risks of what your doing.... like I said before.... complacency will get you....
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Just so I understand, are you using the tree stand as a normal tree stand (sitting knees out facing away from the tree)? Or are you using the tree stand as a saddle style platform with the seat up as knee protection? The reason a RCH or a saddle isn’t the right fit for a tree stand fall restraint is that a) it isn’t a 5 pt harness to keep you upright in a fall, and b) and in my mind the most prevalent danger that the connection point would still be in front of you but your connection to the tree would be behind you. This is the part people don’t talk about. Yes dynamic line would soften your fall. Yes you can adjust some saddles to make sure that you stay mostly upright in a fall, but if your connection point to the tree is behind you, and your connection point of the harness is in your front facing away from the tree, the you will either end up with a tether pinning you violently across your chest or neck in a fall, or you will end up with it violently whipping you around to be facing the tree. That type of twist can and probably will break your spine and cause internal damage. Neither of those scenarios are safe and both are highly probable should a fall occur. That’s why these RCH’s being promoted as a tree stand safety harness is complete garbage. Chances are you might not fall. The stand or strap might never malfunction or fail. But with a fall it only takes once. Saddles used properly have little to no slack in the system and you are facing the point of connection. This is the basis of a work positioning harness.
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you make an excellent point about what it would look like to fall and be flipped around....i'm starting to think that saddles are safer because if a treestand requires a 5 point harness (to not break your back), then it is not safe to me because hanging from one of those 5 point harnesses does not allow easy self rescue and will very quickly cut off flow through the femoral arteries leading to death or loss of legs....those 5 point harnesses are usually used on job sites where there are people around to help you and not in the woods alone
 
raisins said:
you make an excellent point about what it would look like to fall and be flipped around....i'm starting to think that saddles are safer because if a treestand requires a 5 point harness (to not break your back), then it is not safe to me because hanging from one of those 5 point harnesses does not allow easy self rescue and will very quickly cut off flow through the femoral arteries leading to death or loss of legs....those 5 point harnesses are usually used on job sites where there are people around to help you and not in the woods alone
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Incorporate a treestand wingman for $120, problem solved.
 
neonomad said:
Incorporate a treestand wingman for $120, problem solved.
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true...but more junk to buy and carry and another point of possible failure....i'm a saddle dude now....no need for a treestand, especially now that my lower back is getting old
 
raisins said:
you make an excellent point about what it would look like to fall and be flipped around....i'm starting to think that saddles are safer because if a treestand requires a 5 point harness (to not break your back), then it is not safe to me because hanging from one of those 5 point harnesses does not allow easy self rescue and will very quickly cut off flow through the femoral arteries leading to death or loss of legs....those 5 point harnesses are usually used on job sites where there are people around to help you and not in the woods alone
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All you need is a suspension relief strap. My Muddy harness came with one. I believe you could also use your lineman's belt or a screw in step to take pressure off of your legs. Hanging upside down in a saddle isn't going to be any better.
 
raisins said:
you make an excellent point about what it would look like to fall and be flipped around....i'm starting to think that saddles are safer because if a treestand requires a 5 point harness (to not break your back), then it is not safe to me because hanging from one of those 5 point harnesses does not allow easy self rescue and will very quickly cut off flow through the femoral arteries leading to death or loss of legs....those 5 point harnesses are usually used on job sites where there are people around to help you and not in the woods alone
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I mean there are self rescue descending devices that will safely lower you down after a fall even if you are unconscious. And a saddle truly isn’t designed to arrest a fall, only to keep you from falling in the first place so in my mind it’s not a true apples to apples comparison. They each have their own place in the safety worlds. I think the strong argument for saddles is that if used properly, with the correct tether ect… you can’t fall therefore they should be safer than something designed to allow you to fall and catch you. The bigger problem is many users aren’t using the saddle properly and it will lead to more recordable injuries and deaths. That’s why I say saddles have potential to be safer, but potential and real world application rarely show the same trend
 
BuffaloBill said:
All you need is a suspension relief strap. My Muddy harness came with one. I believe you could also use your lineman's belt or a screw in step to take pressure off of your legs. Hanging upside down in a saddle isn't going to be any better.
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yeah....i have a muddy also and it has a little draw string pouch with it in there....doesn't sound fun and i'd probably drop the thing accidentally
 
BuffaloBill said:
All you need is a suspension relief strap. My Muddy harness came with one. I believe you could also use your lineman's belt or a screw in step to take pressure off of your legs. Hanging upside down in a saddle isn't going to be any better.
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How does a suspension relief device help if you hit your head and are rendered unconscious or if you break an arm or leg in the fall and can’t utilize the strap for self rescue?
 
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