Saddle safety PSA

[BuffaloBill]

How does a suspension relief device help if you hit your head and are rendered unconscious or if you break an arm or leg in the fall and can’t utilize the strap for self rescue?

Fair point. I still like my odds over hitting the ground. I will probably get a Wingman for peace of mind.

 

[raisins]

How does a suspension relief device help if you hit your head and are rendered unconscious or if you break an arm or leg in the fall and can’t utilize the strap for self rescue?

that suspension strap always seemed mostly a CYA from muddy and others

i'd carry 2 of them if i ever used that harness again....imagine dropping your only strap because you are shook up and injured ?!?!

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Fair point. I still like my odds over hitting the ground. I will probably get a Wingman for peace of mind.

Definitely safer. As you pointed out, it isn’t any worst than being upside down if a saddle or RCH is used as tree stand safety. There are arguments in favor of each method but I see no good arguments for using a RCH in place of FBH when on a tree stand, and I see no arguments in favor of using a FBH as a saddle lol so…..

 

[raisins]

Definitely safer. As you pointed out, it isn’t any worst than being upside down if a saddle or RCH is used as tree stand safety. There are arguments in favor of each method but I see no good arguments for using a RCH in place of FBH when on a tree stand, and I see no arguments in favor of using a FBH as a saddle lol so…..

i've hung upside down in my saddle at ground level....i feel that so long as i didn't get knocked out or have both my arms rendered useless, then i could right myself pretty easily (however, i can do sit ups easily and used to do them declined)

might be a good experiment for others to do safely at ground level

might be a good reason to not skip leg day so that your center of mass is closer to your pivot if hanging upside down

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

i've hung upside down in my saddle at ground level....i feel that so long as i didn't get knocked out or have both my arms rendered useless, then i could right myself pretty easily (however, i can do sit ups easily and used to do them declined)

might be a good experiment for others to do safely at ground level

might be a good reason to not skip leg day so that your center of mass is closer to your pivot if hanging upside down

Now if we are talking about just flipping upside down and flipping back up, it’s easy. It’s also easy to use your tether to assist (so sit up strength isn’t required lol) but again in a fall scenario, the inverted position may also be accompanied with back or pelvis injury so you won’t be sitting up right easily even if you aren’t unconscious. It is also disorienting if you fall hard and whip upside down. It’s being inverted during a fall that is currently the hot topic for the standards committee now that the head of the TMA is chairing the subcommittee. Basically TMA will support no standard that allows a someone to go inverted in a fall and still call that a pass on a drop test. So basically for saddle manufacturers to pass drop tests (linesman loop, as well as saddles) the dummy cannot go beyond 180 degrees in a drop. This may actually give certain designs such as 2 panel saddles a slight advantage. I’m curious/eager to see how all of that plays out. Having saddles adopted into the TMA would be hugely helpful with insurance premiums as well as law suits involving wrongful use for saddles.

 

[BTaylor]

Definitely safer. As you pointed out, it isn’t any worst than being upside down if a saddle or RCH is used as tree stand safety. There are arguments in favor of each method but I see no good arguments for using a RCH in place of FBH when on a tree stand, and I see no arguments in favor of using a FBH as a saddle lol so…..

My argument for the RCH/treestand combo would be that most falls happen transitioning into or out of the stand and that is done facing the tree not back to tree like a FBH is designed for. If the stand breaks, the RCH will probably be equally or more painful of a stop than the FBH if your back was to the tree. Oh and of the climbing stand failures that I personally know of, all were facing the tree either climbing up or preparing to climb down and facing the tree. All of my near falls were climbing up on screw in steps but I wasnt wearing any sort of fall protection at all. My yard dart insurance was paid up though.

Edit to add I did drop a baker from 20 feet but that was before the climber top was available so I was hugging the tree. An RCH and rappel rope would have beat the snot out of sliding down the tree in a t-shirt. LOL

 

[BTaylor]

Now if we are talking about just flipping upside down and flipping back up, it’s easy. It’s also easy to use your tether to assist (so sit up strength isn’t required lol) but again in a fall scenario, the inverted position may also be accompanied with back or pelvis injury so you won’t be sitting up right easily even if you aren’t unconscious. It is also disorienting if you fall hard and whip upside down. It’s being inverted during a fall that is currently the hot topic for the standards committee now that the head of the TMA is chairing the subcommittee. Basically TMA will support no standard that allows a someone to go inverted in a fall and still call that a pass on a drop test. So basically for saddle manufacturers to pass drop tests (linesman loop, as well as saddles) the dummy cannot go beyond 180 degrees in a drop. This may actually give certain designs such as 2 panel saddles a slight advantage. I’m curious/eager to see how all of that plays out. Having saddles adopted into the TMA would be hugely helpful with insurance premiums as well as law suits involving wrongful use for saddles.

Is that the appropriate standard though since as has been discussed proper use of a saddle should not entail catching a fall, it should be to not have the fall in the first place? I read your post to say the same or very similar drop test as is used for FBH. In my mind that is inappropriate testing.

 

[Spartan]

The couch in front of the TV is safer than holding a weapon 15-20 feet up a tree, regardless of what devices are maintaining your chosen altitude.

Safety third.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Is that the appropriate standard though since as has been discussed proper use of a saddle should not entail catching a fall, it should be to not have the fall in the first place? I read your post to say the same or very similar drop test as is used for FBH. In my mind that is inappropriate testing.

And now you are literally arguing the other side of that debate. That saddles aren’t fall arrest apparatuses. However in all elevated work positioning industries, the Work positioning harnesses have to pass drop tests (albeit not as strenuous as the FBH drop tests).

 

[neonomad]

And now you are literally arguing the other side of that debate. That saddles aren’t fall arrest apparatuses. However in all elevated work positioning industries, the Work positioning harnesses have to pass drop tests (albeit not as strenuous as the FBH drop tests).

Ha I can’t tell which side you’re on because earlier you said “If used properly, they will also have no slack for any truly serious fall forces to occur if your platform cuts out or you slip ect….” but if I had $0.50 for every guy that climbs a tree with sticks and allows significant tether slack throughout that process I’d have a pile of new gear.

I have no plans to quit saddle hunting but I do think it has certain safety issues that are tough to eradicate, which put it on par or sometimes more dangerous than other methods (performed correctly). I sometimes put my money where my mouth is, most hunts in the JX3 I have an RC + screamer backup on, and even some hunts in the Recon I do the same. Sometimes I skip the RC harness and is that easier and more comfortable? Heck yes!

Edit: forget tether slack, how many even climb with a tether + lineman’s for that matter.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Ha I can’t tell which side you’re on because earlier you said “If used properly, they will also have no slack for any truly serious fall forces to occur if your platform cuts out or you slip ect….” but if I had $0.50 for every guy that climbs a tree with sticks and allows significant tether slack throughout that process I’d have a pile of new gear.

I have no plans to quit saddle hunting but I do think it has certain safety issues that are tough to eradicate, which put it on par or sometimes more dangerous than other methods (performed correctly). I sometimes put my money where my mouth is, most hunts in the JX3 I have an RC + screamer backup on, and even some hunts in the Recon I do the same. Sometimes I skip the RC harness and is that easier and more comfortable? Heck yes!

Edit: forget tether slack, how many even climb with a tether + lineman’s for that matter.

Great points you bring up, warning rant forthcoming lol…. I am hoping everyone climbs with their lineman’s rope and that they keep it above their waste and constantly tensioned at a safe angle to reduce falls. That’s part of the “if properly used”.
I see absolutely zero benefit to adding a screamer while saddle hunting because it is made to do something entirely different than what some saddle hunters perceive it doing. That’s talk for another day and has been thoroughly discussed and dissected in other threads.
Lastly, I’m not on a side of the pass-fail criteria debate. I can see both sides. I know that going inverted is one of the most dangerous things that can happen in a fall. I know that work positioning harnesses are not made for true fall arrest (including a RCH if you don’t have long dynamic lead lines or belayers). We have plenty of studies to support these facts.
I also know if you are inspecting your gear before use, constantly tensioned, using your ropes and tether as intended, and keeping your connection point above you, that you cannot fall, or if you did “fall” you couldn’t create a large enough fall factor for their to be serious injury. Cable and telephone workers, lineman, arborist and rescue workers use them everyday and because of that, we have the statistics to back up that claim as well. My take on it is build them as safe as possible so that if something does happen they limit injury and prevent death. If you can’t design or build one to meet that criteria, then you shouldn’t be designing or building them to begin with. But all of that (with exception of catastrophic failure) is a mute point if people use their work positioning harness properly, but like you mentioned, many don’t. As I said, I don’t really have a side. I see the upsides and downsides to each argument. And no matter which side wins the day, I’m gonna be ok. I would rather be the guy in the background giving suggestions.
Lastly many “companies” making this gear have the means and machines to make the gear but they don’t fully understand climbing, or elevated positioning from a trained professional use/design standpoint. I think that there needs to be training available to the recreational hunter. I’m not talking about the video you watch with your tree stand or some guy on you tube. I’m talking about tree climbing schools opening to offer recreational safety. True professional gear use courses with certified instructors. Certified instruction on how to set a climbing stick, how to descend on a rope with different mechanicals and hitches. How to tie hitches and knots, self rescue. Proper technique and movements around the tree on your steps, climbing spikes, platform ect… When to retire ropes. what defines a dynamic event? We have a ton of “you tube professionals” telling us what they do. But how many actually worked in an elevated industry and received proper training? Even better how many are certified instructors? Or how many of them watched someone else’s you tube channels and then regurgitated that untrained person’s info on to their channel? I see no down fall to hunters having access to qualified training.

 

[BTaylor]

And now you are literally arguing the other side of that debate. That saddles aren’t fall arrest apparatuses. However in all elevated work positioning industries, the Work positioning harnesses have to pass drop tests (albeit not as strenuous as the FBH drop tests).

It might help to have a more clear picture of the testing procedure. Is the dummy dropped in the same relation to a tree or pole of some sort as a hunter would be in a hunting situation? I would think that might have some bearing on the test results and how much the "body" would actually rotate say in an unconscious fall.

 

[BTaylor]

Great points you bring up, warning rant forthcoming lol…. I am hoping everyone climbs with their lineman’s rope and that they keep it above their waste and constantly tensioned at a safe angle to reduce falls. That’s part of the “if properly used”.
I see absolutely zero benefit to adding a screamer while saddle hunting because it is made to do something entirely different than what some saddle hunters perceive it doing. That’s talk for another day and has been thoroughly discussed and dissected in other threads.
Lastly, I’m not on a side of the pass-fail criteria debate. I can see both sides. I know that going inverted is one of the most dangerous things that can happen in a fall. I know that work positioning harnesses are not made for true fall arrest (including a RCH if you don’t have long dynamic lead lines or belayers). We have plenty of studies to support these facts.
I also know if you are inspecting your gear before use, constantly tensioned, using your ropes and tether as intended, and keeping your connection point above you, that you cannot fall, or if you did “fall” you couldn’t create a large enough fall factor for their to be serious injury. Cable and telephone workers, lineman, arborist and rescue workers use them everyday and because of that, we have the statistics to back up that claim as well. My take on it is build them as safe as possible so that if something does happen they limit injury and prevent death. If you can’t design or build one to meet that criteria, then you shouldn’t be designing or building them to begin with. But all of that (with exception of catastrophic failure) is a mute point if people use their work positioning harness properly, but like you mentioned, many don’t. As I said, I don’t really have a side. I see the upsides and downsides to each argument. And no matter which side wins the day, I’m gonna be ok. I would rather be the guy in the background giving suggestions.
Lastly many “companies” making this gear have the means and machines to make the gear but they don’t fully understand climbing, or elevated positioning from a trained professional use/design standpoint. I think that there needs to be training available to the recreational hunter. I’m not talking about the video you watch with your tree stand or some guy on you tube. I’m talking about tree climbing schools opening to offer recreational safety. True professional gear use courses with certified instructors. Certified instruction on how to set a climbing stick, how to descend on a rope with different mechanicals and hitches. How to tie hitches and knots, self rescue. Proper technique and movements around the tree on your steps, climbing spikes, platform ect… When to retire ropes. what defines a dynamic event? We have a ton of “you tube professionals” telling us what they do. But how many actually worked in an elevated industry and received proper training? Even better how many are certified instructors? Or how many of them watched someone else’s you tube channels and then regurgitated that untrained person’s info on to their channel? I see no down fall to hunters having access to qualified training.

When I decided I would make the switch to rappelling I actually went to our local climbing center and asked about a training class. I explained it was for hunting application and I would be coming down from trees. They looked at me like I had 3 heads and said yeah we dont do that.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

When I decided I would make the switch to rappelling I actually went to our local climbing center and asked about a training class. I explained it was for hunting application and I would be coming down from trees. They looked at me like I had 3 heads and said yeah we dont do that.

Man you mean Becky at REI wouldn’t teach you how she uses the the tree next to her hunting spot as a stationary belayer
Seriously though this highlights the need for available certified instruction.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

T

It might help to have a more clear picture of the testing procedure. Is the dummy dropped in the same relation to a tree or pole of some sort as a hunter would be in a hunting situation? I would think that might have some bearing on the test results and how much the "body" would actually rotate say in an unconscious fall.

Traditionally no the dummy wasn’t dropped anything like normal saddle use (although I’ve seen some one stick climbers in the positions similar to the traditional dummy drops) the new testing style will have the dummy positioned and mounted at a 25 to 30 degree angle with the harness attached. The dummy won’t actually fall. Instead a counter weight is positioned via a pulley on the opposite side. The weight will be positioned so the harness is fully weighted for 5 minutes and then it will be lifted and dropped. This is the new proposed testing criteria for saddles. While it does fully mimic the angle of a saddle hunter, falls are rarely at a perfect 30 degree angle and we can’t test for inverted in that proposed drop test. Also that’s not a true indicator of fall force since the pulley will always be mounted above the attachment method in that drop test. So I personally am not a fan of that proposal but I believe it has already been voted on so…… However the lineman’s loops and belt test will still be down similarly to the old style. At least that’s the latest offering of standards that I have seen.

 

[BTaylor]

Man you mean Becky at REI wouldn’t teach you how she uses the the tree next to her hunting spot as a stationary belayer
Seriously though this highlights the need for available certified instruction.

The guy I was talking to went and got the owner and he claimed his certification didnt cover the application I was talking about so his insurance wouldnt cover. I will have to give him some credit though, he did ask several questions about our application and seemed genuinely curious. Definitely a need like you mentioned.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

The guy I was talking to went and got the owner and he claimed his certification didnt cover the application I was talking about so his insurance wouldnt cover. I will have to give him some credit though, he did ask several questions about our application and seemed genuinely curious. Definitely a need like you mentioned.

REI sales ropeman on line right… so I asked the local climbing pro there about keeping them in stock since they have became popular with saddle hunters. I told him they would sale here locally and he said there’s no mountains in FL so why would we keep ascenders on the shelf? I told him because of all the saddle hunters that use them. He then asked me why we would need a ropeman to hunt on a horse

it was then that I realized Becca at REI had no business telling someone that a screamer would make falling in a saddle safe. (Sorry it’s a running joke from a thread from a year ago)

 

[BTaylor]

Blue haired I bet. Smurf blue not old blue.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

The couch in front of the TV is safer than holding a weapon 15-20 feet up a tree, regardless of what devices are maintaining your chosen altitude.

Safety third.

I hear ya… there are only 2 certainties in this world and they are Death and Taxes. Sitting on the couch will kill ya too, it might just take longer.

 

[raisins]

Ha I can’t tell which side you’re on because earlier you said “If used properly, they will also have no slack for any truly serious fall forces to occur if your platform cuts out or you slip ect….” but if I had $0.50 for every guy that climbs a tree with sticks and allows significant tether slack throughout that process I’d have a pile of new gear.

I have no plans to quit saddle hunting but I do think it has certain safety issues that are tough to eradicate, which put it on par or sometimes more dangerous than other methods (performed correctly). I sometimes put my money where my mouth is, most hunts in the JX3 I have an RC + screamer backup on, and even some hunts in the Recon I do the same. Sometimes I skip the RC harness and is that easier and more comfortable? Heck yes!

Edit: forget tether slack, how many even climb with a tether + lineman’s for that matter.

here's how i maximize safety for me

always climb with lineman's belt and tether on tree and use best practices/minimize slack

at height, i turn my lineman's lanyard into a secondary tether with just enough slack that it does not interfere with my primary tether (a few inches of slack) or bind up

i use a climbing rated nylon sling to attach the secondary tether to a part of my saddle that is strong enough to hold me but not my bridge (so that the secondary tether is truly redundant.....with only single point of failure being the back webbing of the saddle or i slip out of the saddle altogether)

then just be ultra vigilant and know that it CAN happen to you....no climbing overly tired, hurried, mad, etc.....act like your life depends on every move because it does

oh, and keep your waist belt and leg straps reasonably tight