Safety questions

[beej32]

I had two different safety-related questions come up over the weekend:

1) I understand the rationale in thinking that a saddle is generally safer than a stand/safety harness combo, but am I missing something in thinking that a saddle presents a single point of failure? Meaning, if the bridge or tether were to fail, there's no backup? In my mind with a stand, the stand itself is the first protection, and the safety harness is there just in case the stand fails.

2) Is a friction not effective if frozen? I had the prussic knot on my lifeline freeze up while sitting in the stand over the weekend. Climbing down, I was able to get it to budge, though it was still almost entirely frozen, so much so that it slid very freely up and down the lifeline. In this sort of case, would the force of a fall likely be enough to free the knot up to grab? In this case, the temperature was only mid-20s, though that got me wondering even more about the safety of a lifeline when it's even colder out.

 

[okie_edward]

If it happens again I would test that friction knot from the ground. Give it a hell of a yank and see it bites. If it doesn't, carry a spare in your pack to tie on before you descend.

 

[redsquirrel]

I had two different safety-related questions come up over the weekend:

1) I understand the rationale in thinking that a saddle is generally safer than a stand/safety harness combo, but am I missing something in thinking that a saddle presents a single point of failure? Meaning, if the bridge or tether were to fail, there's no backup? In my mind with a stand, the stand itself is the first protection, and the safety harness is there just in case the stand fails.

It really is the same as a treestand in that regard. You are standing on whatever platform or steps you are using and you are attached to the tree at one tie in point. I would not count the treestand as the first protection, it is very easy to fall off it without it failing.

So, yes it is a single point of failure, but when you are using climbing rated gear with the correct knots this set up will not fail. You have your rope engaged the entire time you are in the tree and there will be no fall. Your most likely chances of fall and injury are climbing up the tree and transferring from climbing to hanging.

 

[Apex7]

If you are worried about the tether or bridge failing then when you are at hunting height and tethered in just take your linesman belt and rap it around the tree and back to it self . Then you will have an extra safty.

 

[ImThere]

I had two different safety-related questions come up over the weekend:

1) I understand the rationale in thinking that a saddle is generally safer than a stand/safety harness combo, but am I missing something in thinking that a saddle presents a single point of failure? Meaning, if the bridge or tether were to fail, there's no backup? In my mind with a stand, the stand itself is the first protection, and the safety harness is there just in case the stand fails.

2) Is a friction not effective if frozen? I had the prussic knot on my lifeline freeze up while sitting in the stand over the weekend. Climbing down, I was able to get it to budge, though it was still almost entirely frozen, so much so that it slid very freely up and down the lifeline. In this sort of case, would the force of a fall likely be enough to free the knot up to grab? In this case, the temperature was only mid-20s, though that got me wondering even more about the safety of a lifeline when it's even colder out.

1 no difference in any other stand / harness.

2 heat from friction will practically melt it to the tether. As long as your tether is long enough it will catch.


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[beej32]

Thanks for the responses. In general, I agree that the absolute risk of a saddle, even though there's a single point of failure, is probably less than the risk associated with a stand/harness combo. Though, I'd say it's disingenuous to say they're the same. Like, if a cable broke on my stand, I'd expect my safety harness to keep me from falling. Or from past experiences hunting stands with no harness at all, I know stands generally do as they're supposed to in holding you up. But with a saddle, if I somehow managed to cut my tether (the situation that comes to mind is a carelessly placed broadhead), I sincerely doubt that a platform of wild edge stepps would keep me from falling.

But again, I do suspect saddle system is generally less likely to fail than a stand/harness system. My question and thoughts are really just intended to help anyone like me who is weighing the risks and benefits of each. It's better to make a decision knowing a risk and choosing to accept it than to be surprised by it later on.

Apex7's suggestion is the potential solution I had in mind for anyone who's uncomfortable with that risk. When I finally do order a saddle, I'll probably experiment with that just to see what impact there is on mobility and noise, though I'm pretty sure I know what results to expect from that, given that nobody seems to keep their linesman's belt hooked up in practice.

 

[BenG]

I think a stand with the proper harness set up is safer for the exact reason you stated. If your stand breaks your harness will catch you. If your tether breaks chances are you aren’t gonna catch yourself as your leaning back. I feel pretty darn safe tied off with my rock harness and good rope in my climber. With the saddle you can always add another tether low if your a little unsure. I did this for a while but now am pretty comfortable with just the tether. I don’t know enough about the friction knots but you shouldn’t be relying solely on that, tie the end of the rope to your harness or tie a loop with a carabiner so you can clip in easy if you do not like tying knots. A saddle is not plug and play but can be just as safe or safer than conventional stands depending on how you use it.

 

[redsquirrel]

Thanks for the responses. In general, I agree that the absolute risk of a saddle, even though there's a single point of failure, is probably less than the risk associated with a stand/harness combo. Though, I'd say it's disingenuous to say they're the same. Like, if a cable broke on my stand, I'd expect my safety harness to keep me from falling. Or from past experiences hunting stands with no harness at all, I know stands generally do as they're supposed to in holding you up. But with a saddle, if I somehow managed to cut my tether (the situation that comes to mind is a carelessly placed broadhead), I sincerely doubt that a platform of wild edge stepps would keep me from falling.

But again, I do suspect saddle system is generally less likely to fail than a stand/harness system. My question and thoughts are really just intended to help anyone like me who is weighing the risks and benefits of each. It's better to make a decision knowing a risk and choosing to accept it than to be surprised by it later on.

Apex7's suggestion is the potential solution I had in mind for anyone who's uncomfortable with that risk. When I finally do order a saddle, I'll probably experiment with that just to see what impact there is on mobility and noise, though I'm pretty sure I know what results to expect from that, given that nobody seems to keep their linesman's belt hooked up in practice.

I don't think there is any comparison between the safety of a proper saddle system and a treestand and harness.

The saddle system when used as designed with the correct knots and climbing grade materials is designed to hold you up in the tree and to save you in a fall (which is very unlikely when used correctly.) The materials and knots used are typically rated for 5000-6000 pounds. A common term used is "working load limit (WLL)" and the generally accepted WLL incorporates a safety factor of 10. So for a 6000 pound rated piece of rope the WLL would be 600 pounds, which is probably 2-3 times the average man. These are all built into the system. These materials and techniques are what people's lives depend on every day from rock climbers to arborists to life safety workers.

A treestand and "safety" harness in the hunting industry usually depend on whether or not the company was willing to pay to have the TMA "testing" done which I have read is a joke compared to the climbing industry.

In your example you mentioned a broadhead cutting your tether. I don't think this is a realistic scenario. It is possible the broadhead would cut the tether, but being that the tether is over engineered you will still have the ability to safely get out of the tree and replace your tether.

Hooking up with your lineman's belt as a second tether is also not practical. It would get in the way and greatly limit your mobility.

 

[Apex7]

I don't think there is any comparison between the safety of a proper saddle system and a treestand and harness.

The saddle system when used as designed with the correct knots and climbing grade materials is designed to hold you up in the tree and to save you in a fall (which is very unlikely when used correctly.) The materials and knots used are typically rated for 5000-6000 pounds. A common term used is "working load limit (WLL)" and the generally accepted WLL incorporates a safety factor of 10. So for a 6000 pound rated piece of rope the WLL would be 600 pounds, which is probably 2-3 times the average man. These are all built into the system. These materials and techniques are what people's lives depend on every day from rock climbers to arborists to life safety workers.

A treestand and "safety" harness in the hunting industry usually depend on whether or not the company was willing to pay to have the TMA "testing" done which I have read is a joke compared to the climbing industry.

In your example you mentioned a broadhead cutting your tether. I don't think this is a realistic scenario. It is possible the broadhead would cut the tether, but being that the tether is over engineered you will still have the ability to safely get out of the tree and replace your tether.

Hooking up with your lineman's belt as a second tether is also not practical. It would get in the way and greatly limit your mobility.

You don't hook it back into your saddle you hook it once you wrapped around the tree back to the rope itself with the carabiner that way your rope is longer and you can move around a tree without any interference.

 

[Apex7]

I don't think there is any comparison between the safety of a proper saddle system and a treestand and harness.

The saddle system when used as designed with the correct knots and climbing grade materials is designed to hold you up in the tree and to save you in a fall (which is very unlikely when used correctly.) The materials and knots used are typically rated for 5000-6000 pounds. A common term used is "working load limit (WLL)" and the generally accepted WLL incorporates a safety factor of 10. So for a 6000 pound rated piece of rope the WLL would be 600 pounds, which is probably 2-3 times the average man. These are all built into the system. These materials and techniques are what people's lives depend on every day from rock climbers to arborists to life safety workers.

A treestand and "safety" harness in the hunting industry usually depend on whether or not the company was willing to pay to have the TMA "testing" done which I have read is a joke compared to the climbing industry.

In your example you mentioned a broadhead cutting your tether. I don't think this is a realistic scenario. It is possible the broadhead would cut the tether, but being that the tether is over engineered you will still have the ability to safely get out of the tree and replace your tether.

Hooking up with your lineman's belt as a second tether is also not practical. It would get in the way and greatly limit your mobility.

I use to do it and it does not restrict your movement around the tree if you hook it back into the rope close to the tree with your carabiner you can still swing completely around the tree but you're only hooked off on one side of your harness but it's something if you don't feel safe I don't use it anymore but it does work.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

If you are worried about the tether or bridge failing then when you are at hunting height and tethered in just take your linesman belt and rap it around the tree and back to it self . Then you will have an extra safty.

Not a bad thing to do until you gain confidence in your system. You will unhook when you believe in your tether and bridge. The risk to unhooking is low you will believe that over time Practice will produce confidence
I always double check my bridge and tether before unhooking my lineman’s belt.


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[Harleycharlie]

I must agree with red on this .... the thought of cutting your tether with a broad head is not realistic. Most tethers are 11mm rope , so that being said you would have to saw on it to get a broad to cut in two. Could you nick your tether with a broad head ???? Of course..... but as with any life safety gear you should inspect it before you use it. To compare a deer hunting stand and harness to a saddle set up is not even in the same ball park. The gear we use for saddle hunting is a lot of the same gear professionals use in their day to day jobs. Which is regulated by osha not tma. A hunting harness is not. The thought of falling wearing a hunting harness has always scared me. It’s clear to all of us we can’t trust or believe what most of the hunting equipment manufactures says. Due to my job I have had a lot of training in rescue and rescue gear. With what I know I felt very safe using a saddle and I would never even consider using conventional gear again. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Ontariofarmer]

The chance of cutting your bridge with a broad head is a very remote possibility but the chance of dying in a car accident is much higher. We drive every day
Risk. Benefit. The hookup is safe

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[redsquirrel]

You don't hook it back into your saddle you hook it once you wrapped around the tree back to the rope itself with the carabiner that way your rope is longer and you can move around a tree without any interference.

Ok, I understand what you are saying and that would not limit your movement if done that way. But I wouldn't recommend doing it like that, new tribe and climbing harness companies talk about completing the circle. The system is safe when from A to B and over to C. But they say it is not when you go from A to B back to A.

 

[TheTracker]

Your climbing rope is not going to fail unless there is some serious carelessness on your part being done to it. Tree climbers/arborists all over the world use these ropes every single day for hours at a time and never have issues and they are much more extreme with their equipment then the average saddle hunter by far.

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[Apex7]

Ok, I understand what you are saying and that would not limit your movement if done that way. But I wouldn't recommend doing it like that, new tribe and climbing harness companies talk about completing the circle. The system is safe when from A to B and over to C. But they say it is not when you go from A to B back to A.

Agreed and I don't think there is anyway that the Kestrel would fail . If you wanted to use your climbing belt you could hook up the way it should be and place the rope above a screw in step that would let it pivot. What do you think?

 

[redsquirrel]

Agreed and I don't think there is anyway that the Kestrel would fail . If you wanted to use your climbing belt you could hook up the way it should be and place the rope above a screw in step that would let it pivot. What do you think?

I suppose you could, but I think it is unnecessary. If I did that it would still hinder my mobility. I have taken quite a few shots where I moved to my right, took my left foot off the steps and leaned as far back as I could go to shoot to what is my normal 3 o'clock position. I don't think having another hookup would allow me to do that.

 

[BenG]

I think an accident would be more likely to happen with a mistied knot or a carabiner not clipped in properly. Things like that, not necessarily a broadhead cutting the tether. Just saying. I wasn’t trying to say saddle hunting is not safe by any means, as I use one with just one tether now and wouldn’t do so if I felt it wasn’t safe in any way. I simply feel that it’s more important to be attentive and informed as to what you’re doing in a saddle. I’ve spent countless hours researching this forum and other climbing forums, you tube videos etc... to really feel confident with my setup. If your using a climbing harness and climbing rope with your climber your are essentially using your saddle out of a stand, so you have both really. I can’t help but think this is a little safer. Now if your comparing using the commercial safety harnesses marketed to the hunting industry then yes of course there’s no question our saddle gear is safer.

 

[beej32]

I had to chuckle and feel a bit honored in a somewhat perverse way from being called out in the latest podcast. In my defense, I tried to say in my posts above that I agree that the likelihood of failure in a saddle (broadly defined as a failure in the bridge OR tether) is less than the likelihood of failure in a traditional stand (meaning the failure of the stand AND safety harness). But in choosing for oneself, I do think it's important to acknowledge that there is a single point of failure in this setup. That doesn't mean it's worse- I personally believe the saddle is safer.

And I haven't been around long enough to have seen prior discussions of the "cut by broadhead" scenario, so apologies if that had been previously hashed out. It was just one hypothetical situation that came to mind, and it's helpful to learn that it's not a realistic concern given the nature of the gear used. But BenG's mention of misused knots or carabiners are much more likely failure scenarios and would be similarly catastrophic. Sadly, those weren't even among the situations that came to mind for me. That's obviously attributable to me having absolutely no saddle or climbing experience yet. So my big takeaway from this conversation is the emphasis on the criticality in inspecting your gear and using it correctly, in light of where failures are prone to occur. Hopefully that's helpful for other folks looking to get into it like me.

 

[redsquirrel]

I had to chuckle and feel a bit honored in a somewhat perverse way from being called out in the latest podcast. In my defense, I tried to say in my posts above that I agree that the likelihood of failure in a saddle (broadly defined as a failure in the bridge OR tether) is less than the likelihood of failure in a traditional stand (meaning the failure of the stand AND safety harness). But in choosing for oneself, I do think it's important to acknowledge that there is a single point of failure in this setup. That doesn't mean it's worse- I personally believe the saddle is safer.

And I haven't been around long enough to have seen prior discussions of the "cut by broadhead" scenario, so apologies if that had been previously hashed out. It was just one hypothetical situation that came to mind, and it's helpful to learn that it's not a realistic concern given the nature of the gear used. But BenG's mention of misused knots or carabiners are much more likely failure scenarios and would be similarly catastrophic. Sadly, those weren't even among the situations that came to mind for me. That's obviously attributable to me having absolutely no saddle or climbing experience yet. So my big takeaway from this conversation is the emphasis on the criticality in inspecting your gear and using it correctly, in light of where failures are prone to occur. Hopefully that's helpful for other folks looking to get into it like me.

In no way did I mean to call you out. The topic has come up before and we just decided to talk about it because you brought it up recently