I just built a double Michoacán out of Sterling 5.9 mm Power Cord for use on 8mm Rescue Tech. I used 6 wraps on both and it’s working fine on my few attempts in the garage this morning. I have some 7mm Sterling accessory cord that I am going to try as well.
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SRT Climbing - Anchors, Hitches, Configurations
- Thread starter gcr0003
- Start date
I just built a double Michoacán out of Sterling 5.9 mm Power Cord for use on 8mm Rescue Tech. I used 6 wraps on both and it’s working fine on my few attempts in the garage this morning. I have some 7mm Sterling accessory cord that I am going to try as well.
John RB
Well-Known Member
It halves the load on any strand. So half your weight on each meech, one quarter your weight on each strand going into the meech, and an assembly that will hold double the load before slipping. All friction hitches will slip before they break, and that's a good thing. Of course the strength of the cord itself is a constant. I don't think u meant to imply otherwise but it likely came out that way unintentionally in your question.
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They make a truck lolTESLA???You should know I'm 100% a truck guy!
El Diablo Amarillo
New Member
So my go to is 200’ of 11mm Safari with a eye splice on both ends, a Rope Runner with a Notch chesty for ascending, a 2nd gen SAKA knee ascender ( but the SAKA Mini is superior to what I run now) and a CMI foot ascender for the other leg. I typically basal tie with a steel delta link. The spliced eye eliminats any need for knots anywhere. If I decide I want to advance my tie in before I leave the ground Ill just run the end of my rope up with the delta link still in a choke configuration but its aerial. When I reach my tie in I can leap frog it up as I go in tandem with my lanyard. When its time to descend I can either clip the delta to my bridge or swap it for a carabiner and come down DRT/ MRS. Its very simple and hitch/knotless.
In regards to an emergency lowering setup the porta wrap should not be used for saddle hunters. EVER. And Im almost just as opinionated about any other device in the line for emergency’s. An Alpine Butterfly is acceptable tho. The reasons are you cannot trust an untrained person to use these devices because its very likely you will get dropped. And you cant count on being in a condition to teach them. An alpine butterfly will likely only be used by trained rescue personel.
Something everyone should be considering when picking out these climbing ropes is diameter AND mbs AND rope construction. Not just how much the rope weighs. Whether you like it or not when you cross the line from climbing sticks and ladders to climbing ropes for access you stepped into the arborist world. The ANSI rules are 7/16” minimum diameter and 5400# MbS. A lot of good men have died to establish what should be used for rope access. Using those tiny 8 mm lines etc that were designed as 1x bail out ropes is not a safe way to repeatedly access a tree. They are not designed for such use. Also most of the mechanical devices are not rates for use below 11 or 11.8 mm diameter ropes.
I flew a Rope Wrench on 8 mm Ocean for years. Its a very smooth ride depending on your access line choice. I had an Akimbo for a few weeks and returned it. I tried it on 4 different lines Rock Exotica recomended and it would never set at the top of a climb regardless how it was adjusted. I replaced it with a second one with same results. They both went back to RE engineering dept and they couldnt get it to work either so take it for what thats worth.
Also some guys like F8‘s and similar type rappeling devices. The problem with all of them is if anything happens and you lose your grip its a suislide to the ground. ANSI has a rule where if you take your hand off the hitch or device you have to stop. Its a rule to live by. I realize the hunting industry doesnt NEED to abide by the ANSI standards BUT bear in mind they have already figured out many of the things many people question and try to reinvent as saddle hunters. And I havent found a hunting hobby yet worth getting crippled up or dying for to save a few ounces in rope weight
John RB
Well-Known Member
Let's take that 5400 number... if an SRT climber is safe on a 5440lb rope... well then if you're on a doubled rope system such as MRS or my JRB system, where the weight is always distributed on BOTH sides, and the tension on the rope is always approximately half the climbers weight, then why isn't there an ANSI standard that says an approximately 3000lb rope is good for doubled rope system? Rock climbers DO have ropes for this purpose, with ratings as half ropes. Tree Climbing doesn't, and i am sorry, but I do not need a 5440lb rope to hunt and i don't need 7/16. And that's because I'm not an arborist, and I am not running a chainsaw which can jump through an 8mm rope a lot quicker than it can 7/16. I have great respect for the arborist community but i have had this debate many times and nobody has ever provided anything to make me back down. My position is that a rock climbing rope rated as a HALF rope is perfectly fine for doubled rope systems. I have consulted with technical experts from rock climbing rope companies and also with ARB rope companies. Nobody had a good reason. Anyone got an opinion?
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Hey man I can tell you are coming here with a wealth of knowledge from the arbor culture world. But a few things to add because this is recreational saddle hunting which is a blend of ideas from tree stands, rock climbing and arbor culture….. One is there are no ANSI standards in place for saddle hunting. I too have repeatedly mentioned that if we use arborist regs as our rule of thumb then none of us should be using below a 10mm or 11mm lead line or an 8mm friction cord. Some things about the ropes and devices you are seeing. One many people use rope man 1 and 2’s, Kong Duck ascenders. The ropeman 1 is rated for 10mm to 13mm rope, the kong and the ropeman 2 are rated for 8mm to 13mm rope sizes. Also you are seeing people rappel the tree with madrock’s, and petzl gri gri plus. The Madrock safe guard is rated for 8.9mm to 11mm ropes and the petzl gri gri is from 8.5 to 11mm. I know that 8mm oplux is out of spec but the 9mm canyon 4 and the 10mm ropes many guys are using are in spec for those devices. The gri gri plus also includes a panick feature so if you pull the handle too hard or let it go, it will brake and hold. Are these perfect for these uses? No. None of them are rated for fall arrest but neither are saddles which are like work positioning harnesses without load bearing leg straps. Many guys here can’t afford $200 and $300 dollar rope wrenches and many wouldn’t want the extra weight. I like the idea of a buck squeeze when I climb but a lot of guys won’t want that weight or cost either. It is very hard to regulate how people get up the tree, especially with a lack of standards in place for our specific hobby. While I do agree with you 100% that no hunt is worth not coming home safely, and I have even made some of the suggestions you are making. I would caution you to research some of these devices a little bit and you may be surprised some of the information you find in relation to the saddle world.
Personally I prefer a simple moving rope system with a tried and true Blake’s hitch if I can scout and leave paracord loops. I love using my hooks if I am on private land. Both are light weight and easy for me to ascend with minimal gear. I am very glad that you have gotten on here because we need more voices of reason. I am sure that you @Vtbow, @kyler1945 and myself will all get along very well and agre on safety related posts. But try to keep in mind that while we do have some things in common with arborist, our intended use and the way we utilize it will be different.
Fuse Dude
Well-Known Member
+1 for paintbrush stick figures!
El Diablo Amarillo
New Member
Def agree with you on many points and I did comment hunters are not regullated by ANSi or any other body. That is both good and bad. It leaves us wide open to make good or bad choices. My point in pushing the ANSI angle is SO MANY of the threads I read thru before joining often have the same or similar questions with tree access. And often with the same cut and paste replies. Much of the math work has already been figured out and written in these standards but folks have no idea where to look and I fully understand why they dont. Those standards set for arborists should be understood and used if for nothing else as a reference or starting point to understand what you may be setting yourself up for good or bad. As I stated like it or not you are crossing an invisible line when you stop climbing sticks and start climbing ropes. At least people are better educated in the choices they make at that point. Stresses on these paper thin saddles and 8mm ish size ropes are greatly exaggerated when using them to climb rope vs using sticks or a ladder then slapping a tether around the tree. Ratings and sizes only tell part of the story too. Cycles to failure and UV degradation are rarely talked about items but again using these tiny ropes that were intended as winch lines or bail out lines for fire fighters pushes these ropes outside their intended end use IMO so CTF in these saddle applications is a giant unknown. Very likely some folks here tie a hitch watching a you tube video, are pretty sure they got it right, take it outside and hang a little bit then call it good. Rarely do those same folks take those hitches apart and inspect for glazing and picks that will now become part of the “normal” duty cycle of all these cords that would never have occured had that same hunter/ same saddle stayed on sticks or a ladder.
I got to semi disagree on your last line. The fact we are hunting at the top of the climb has little to no bearing on these choices we make in ropes. Its the up and the down that will bite us and in that respect there is literally no difference between a saddle hunter and an arborist. Both are doing the exact same thing.
I cut my saddle hunting teeth so to speak around 13 years old by setting a 100’ 3 strand rope in a tree, tying a bowline on a bight for a saddle and leaving a long tail to tie a prussic with my Bear recurve with Kodiak broadheads slung over my back Rambo style. Getting a old worn out lineman belt was a giant step up for me in those early years. I was taught how to tie all this by an old arborist. This was his daily climbing setup for years he showed me how to tie for myself. No lanyard. Those were for sissy's according to him. Please trust me. I fully get what it is to climb simple, cheap, and with less and not caring about any rules. I also have found that many people have no idea a couple items even exist that now allow you to walk up a rope 50’+ and not even be short of breath so for those folks who are willing to drop the coin Im happy to help them learn what is out there.
And for the record there is absolutely nothing wrong with DRT and a Blakes. When I went thru ISA Arborist classes that is what we were taught to use and I switched to that setup for years. We were told its a basic skill and we had to know it. because someday at height something was gonna go super wrong and all we would have was our climb line to get down and no fancy mechanical crap. So we had to know the basics for a foundation to save ourselves. So far their words have been true for me only 1x but thats plenty for me
Heck if anyone really wants to drop coin on this stuff they can grab a Ronin battery powered ascender/ descender and take almost all the work out of it!
I got to semi disagree on your last line. The fact we are hunting at the top of the climb has little to no bearing on these choices we make in ropes. Its the up and the down that will bite us and in that respect there is literally no difference between a saddle hunter and an arborist. Both are doing the exact same thing.
I cut my saddle hunting teeth so to speak around 13 years old by setting a 100’ 3 strand rope in a tree, tying a bowline on a bight for a saddle and leaving a long tail to tie a prussic with my Bear recurve with Kodiak broadheads slung over my back Rambo style. Getting a old worn out lineman belt was a giant step up for me in those early years. I was taught how to tie all this by an old arborist. This was his daily climbing setup for years he showed me how to tie for myself. No lanyard. Those were for sissy's according to him. Please trust me. I fully get what it is to climb simple, cheap, and with less and not caring about any rules. I also have found that many people have no idea a couple items even exist that now allow you to walk up a rope 50’+ and not even be short of breath so for those folks who are willing to drop the coin Im happy to help them learn what is out there.
And for the record there is absolutely nothing wrong with DRT and a Blakes. When I went thru ISA Arborist classes that is what we were taught to use and I switched to that setup for years. We were told its a basic skill and we had to know it. because someday at height something was gonna go super wrong and all we would have was our climb line to get down and no fancy mechanical crap. So we had to know the basics for a foundation to save ourselves. So far their words have been true for me only 1x but thats plenty for me
Heck if anyone really wants to drop coin on this stuff they can grab a Ronin battery powered ascender/ descender and take almost all the work out of it!
MNFarmHunter
Well-Known Member
How do you carry and manage that length of rope? For me, a stuff sack/rope bag is the most efficient means to store and deploy a rope tangle and twist free but 200' seems excessive for hunting purposes. I can see 100' being manageable with a canopy (w/ alpine butterfly) or a basal wrap though.
Surely he isn’t using that for hunting. That is 11 pounds of rope.
John RB
Well-Known Member
Agree, i believe he's describing his Arborist rig. I look forward to seeing what he thinks is ideal for saddle hunting specifically. If you are used to large diameter ropes, its even more difficult to feel comfortable on something smaller. It was probably 9 years ago when i switched from a 10.5 mm rope to a 7.7 mm rope in an MRS system. It felt like dental floss. I remember texting my buddy every i haunted my exact location so he would know where to recover my body! I recently destroyed that rope by doing pull testing of my JRB hitch on it with a tractor. And if ya haven't seen that vid, it gave me great appreciation for the rope. With high certainty, If i fall, it's not gonna be because my climbing rope failed.
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