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Survey question about front end weight for arrows

1simplemann said:
Movement definitely factors into it. Hitting paper targets is easy. On an animal, It's what happens after you hit that counts.
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What happens after your arrow strikes an animal has something to do with where the animal is struck which has something to do with what happens before the animal is struck.

If everyone hit their quarry in the lethal spot they intended, then I don’t think it matters much between heavyweight setups and a properly spined and tuned arrow with 100g up front.

I think we heard on the forum about a heavyweight arrow aimed at a deers vital V hitting the opposite side hind quarter instead.

Pros and cons.

I’ve been shooting 100g mechanicals with a standard insert.

I’m not wed to that. Right now, I like the middle ground @kyler1945 has systematized most.

I’m hesitant to give up too much speed. IMO, time to target is a factor that matters and is somewhat understated.
 
1simplemann said:
I know for fact that I don't hit exactly where I aim all the time. I have hit the shoulder several times over the years. It didn't end well for me or the deer. The closer they are the better I am. I have very little need or desire to shoot beyond 30 yds. Under 30yd and most likely they are taking a ride in the back of my truck. Under 20yds and it's almost a sure bet. I lost count years ago on how many bow kills I have but it 100+. I can count on my hands how many were over 30 yds. Most of those were elk. On whitetails, just a few. For me, if 95% of my WT kills are 30 yds and under then I want to minimize potential loses. By maximizing my set up for as much penetration as possible I am taking bone hits out of the equation therefore maximizing my success rate.
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100% how I see it as well. Although I have not hit that triple digit number for whitetail yet. I am probably about half that. Hog and turkey on the other hand…. I know I’m way up on those. I take about 7 to 10 hogs per year via bow. We don’t use guns and we do not hunt feeders or bait or that number could be achieved in a few weeks….
The bone structure especially the shoulder and shield are very strong. So I need the heavy builds for the uncontrollable factors. Just like you said I know I am not hitting my exact spot 100% of the time.
 
Plebe said:
What happens after your arrow strikes an animal has something to do with where the animal is struck which has something to do with what happens before the animal is struck.

If everyone hit their quarry in the lethal spot they intended, then I don’t think it matters much between heavyweight setups and a properly spined and tuned arrow with 100g up front.

I think we heard on the forum about a heavyweight arrow aimed at a deers vital V hitting the opposite side hind quarter instead.

Pros and cons.

I’ve been shooting 100g mechanicals with a standard insert.

I’m not wed to that. Right now, I like the middle ground @kyler1945 has systematized most.

I’m hesitant to give up too much speed. IMO, time to target is a factor that matters and is somewhat understated.
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True to a degree. I used to think the same thing. If you have ever experienced a deflection then you will understand what I'm talking about. I've hit them exactly where I wanted and lost them. In one case I was shooting 365gr and a mechanical. quartering away at a doe. It should have hit that offside shoulder. It didn't. It went in at the last rib and came out ever further back. She ran off into the Wheatfield w/the arrow hanging out on both sides. Total gut shot. She lay down under the powerline. I could clearly see her in her bed. I gave her some time. I went to the dentist and came back. Of all the days, the power company was out there changing insulators. they jumped her before I got there. They said she went a long way out into the middle of that wheatfield. With nothing to go on I Never found a drop of blood after that. During that time period, I lost numerous deer w/ that set up. That experience along w/ several others led me to make a change because it clearly wasn't working. I did the research and found out that the old timers that taught me actually knew what they were talking about. Heavy arrows w/ cut on contact BH's out of a well tuned bow will put critters on the ground. I made the changes back to a set up basicially very similar to how I started 42 years ago. I haven't looked back since.
 
Aluminum insert that came with arrows 19-21 grains? And 100-125 grain head. I’ve had no issues with passing through from 0-20 yards. 47# draw weight and 27” draw length.
 
1simplemann said:
True to a degree. I used to think the same thing. If you have ever experienced a deflection then you will understand what I'm talking about. I've hit them exactly where I wanted and lost them. In one case I was shooting 365gr and a mechanical. quartering away at a doe. It should have hit that offside shoulder. It didn't. It went in at the last rib and came out ever further back. She ran off into the Wheatfield w/the arrow hanging out on both sides. Total gut shot. She lay down under the powerline. I could clearly see her in her bed. I gave her some time. I went to the dentist and came back. Of all the days, the power company was out there changing insulators. they jumped her before I got there. They said she went a long way out into the middle of that wheatfield. With nothing to go on I Never found a drop of blood after that. During that time period, I lost numerous deer w/ that set up. That experience along w/ several others led me to make a change because it clearly wasn't working. I did the research and found out that the old timers that taught me actually knew what they were talking about. Heavy arrows w/ cut on contact BH's out of a well tuned bow will put critters on the ground. I made the changes back to a set up basicially very similar to how I started 42 years ago. I haven't looked back since.
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I haven’t, but do “heavy” arrows not deflect?
 
Plebe said:
I haven’t, but do “heavy” arrows not deflect?
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Heavy broad heads especially single bevels, pull the arrow through on impact as opposed to the arrow “driving” the broad head so the extra weight helps continued penetration when harder surfaces (bone, cartilage ect) are hit.
 
Plebe said:
I haven’t, but do “heavy” arrows not deflect?
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The answer to your question is yes they do. However the amount of deflection is less the heavier the object is.. I can't remember the physics Law but physics class was long time ago for me. I just know that object in motion wants to continue in motion unless an opposing force is applied.. (Gravity, bone etc.)The heavier that object is the more it wants to stay in the direction it is traveling. Any good, competent gunsmith will tell you the same thing. Lighter bullets drift and deflect. Heavier bullets stay on course more. The same is true with an arrow. In that one specific example I gave you I also think the over the top style of mechanical BH had alot to do with it. One blade hit before the other and deployed causing the arrow to kick on impact. However a heavier arrow would have caused it to kick less.
 
There is a simple experiment that anyone can do at home and will show the penetration difference derived from mass over speed. All you will need is a wrist rocket slingshot, a chronograph, a ping pong ball, a golf ball and a dozen roses.

Set up the chronograph in your living room with a blank sheetrock wall as the backstop. Take the ping pong ball and shoot it over the chronograph into the sheetrock wall as fast as you can and write down the speed. Next, take the golf ball and shoot it over the chronograph into the sheetrock wall as fast as you can and write down the speed. Note the difference in penetration on the sheet rock wall, lol. Give the dozen roses to your wife when she gets home so she doesn't divorce you over the hole in the living room wall. :)

PS don't really try this at home.
 
NMSbowhunter said:
There is a simple experiment that anyone can do at home and will show the penetration difference derived from mass over speed. All you will need is a wrist rocket slingshot, a chronograph, a ping pong ball, a golf ball and a dozen roses.

Set up the chronograph in your living room with a blank sheetrock wall as the backstop. Take the ping pong ball and shoot it over the chronograph into the sheetrock wall as fast as you can and write down the speed. Next, take the golf ball and shoot it over the chronograph into the sheetrock wall as fast as you can and write down the speed. Note the difference in penetration on the sheet rock wall, lol. Give the dozen roses to your wife when she gets home so she doesn't divorce you over the hole in the living room wall. :)

PS don't really try this at home.
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If we're strictly talking momentum, it is a simple function of mass x velocity (everything else equal).

Many shooters are over 400g without adding heavy inserts or broadheads over 100g.

Lets see some some calculations using the same bow. IBO = 315, 29.5" draw length, 66lbs draw weight, 15g on string.

M in lb-s, KE in ft-lbs:

400g taw, 281.6fps = .4997lb-s, 70.362ft-lbs
500g taw, 248.3fps = .5507lb-s, 68.381ft-lbs
600g taw, 215fps = .5723lb-s, 61.523ft-lbs
650g taw, 198.3 = .5718lb-s, 56.698ft-lbs

So, at the "bone breaking threshold of 650g, this bow actually produces less momentum and kinetic energy than at 600g.

Now this isn't real world, I'm just using calculators.

But I think it's demonstrative to the relationship between mass and velocity, much more than ping pong balls and golf balls and long range precision shooting.

In this case, the most significant gain in momentum happens at 500g and costs less than 40fps. Going to the bone breaking threshold of 650 costs over 40fps more than that at approximately .02lb-s increase in momentum.

Is .02lb-s worth more than 40fps?
 
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Plebe said:
If we're strictly talking momentum, it is a simple function of mass x velocity (everything else equal).

Many shooters are over 400g without adding heavy inserts or broadheads over 100g.

Lets see some some calculations using the same bow. IBO = 315, 29.5" draw length, 66lbs draw weight, 15g on string.

M in lb-s, KE in ft-lbs:

400g taw, 281.6fps = .4997lb-s, 70.362ft-lbs
500g taw, 248.3fps = .5507lb-s, 68.381ft-lbs
600g taw, 215fps = .5723lb-s, 61.523ft-lbs
650g taw, 198.3 = .5718lb-s, 56.698ft-lbs

So, at the "bone breaking threshold of 650g, this bow actually produces less momentum and kinetic energy than at 600g.

Now this isn't real world, I'm just using calculators.

But I think it's demonstrative to the relationship between mass and velocity, much more than ping pong balls and golf balls and long range precision shooting.

In this case, the most significant gain in momentum happens at 500g and costs less than 40fps. Going to the bone breaking threshold of 650 costs over 40fps more than that at approximately .02lb-s increase in momentum.

Is .02lb-s worth more than 40fps?
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Your using a calculator. Your numbers are wrong. As the mass weight goes up the bow's efficiency goes up. Your KE and M values have to go up. Actually Shoot those same arrows through a chrono and get back to me.
 
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1simplemann said:
Your using a calculator. Your numbers are wrong. As the mass weight goes up the bow's efficiency goes up. Your KE and M values have to go up. Actually Shoot those same arrows through a chrono and get back to me.
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Yeah, I'm probably not going to do that for you. lol.

It's a good point, the assumptions and flaws in the calculator don't demonstrate factual results. Probably still better than ping pong balls and golf balls and long range shooting analogies to some degree.

I did find some actual recorded data (DIY Sportsman). Of course it is specific to the exact gear tested, and the calibrations of the measuring instruments used, and the environment and atmospherics of the laboratory.

It's interesting to revisit this.

(506.1 taw) .5793 - (406 taw) .51516 = (100.1 taw) .06414
(605.5 taw) .63935 - (506.1 taw) .5793 = (99.4 taw) .06005
(718.1 taw) .69665 - (605.5 taw) .63935 = (112.6 taw) .0573
(850 taw) .75924 - (718.1) .69665 = (131.9 taw) .06259


How much can a deer move in .4 vs .3 seconds?


69A5DEF7-23D4-44F1-995F-3D7850DB10AC.png


View attachment 62806
 
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100gr broadhead and whatever light aluminum insert the pro shop set my arrows up with and I blew threw every whitetail (broadside) for 18 years. I since switched it up to building my own arrows 55gr insert/ outsert and 100 gr head. 70# bow with a 30" draw length and u almost can't go wrong on whitetail. It's always a sacrifice on speed if u go heavy. The spooky deer I hunt I choose to go with more speed. If I was to hunt bigger game I would go heavy but the miniscule deer I kill I don't need it lol
 
Weldabeast said:
Numbers boring
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I was thinking the same thing.

I've never had an arrow fail to pass through.

Nonetheless, I'm not against improving my setup if the numbers tell that story. @1simplemann is right, I need the numbers on my rig.

It's odd that the 650g heavy bone breaking threshold isn't associated with a momentum numeric, is it? When was that threshold figured? Different rigs are going to vary in momentum produced at 650g taw.

Who knows, after all this, maybe I'll add 25g up front, lol.
 
John Dudly had an opinion on this that I agree with. Something along the lines that he builds the most accurate arrow with a big cut broadhead that can bail u out on a bad hit. To build an arrow strictly around hitting a shoulder ball joint that may be 3sq inches with a deep penatrating head wouldn't bail u out as much as a faster arrow with less drop and a big cut mechanical head that can prove more deadly for a shot that is back or low or even a leg hit with more chance of cutting a main vein.
 
I'm at the max for my arrow spine or I'd go heavier...i think it's fun....it really isn't that expensive to try it out...u will learn to tune ur bow and become better archer even if u decide against going real heavy.
With my limited kills will heavies and extremely sharp broadheads probably the most beneficial, besides increasing lethality of the arrow, is the fact the animals reaction is much less...I think it's a combination of quieter bow, no blade deploy/slap, the arrow sliding quick and quiet thru like hot knife, the animals act like they got a wasp sting
 
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