Talk to me about Canoes

[aclawrence]

Hey friends, I've always wanted a kayak but never got around to getting one. My oldest daughter is about to turn 10 and she says she wants to get a kayak. I'm sure you can see where this is heading. It's the perfect chance for me to get one to. Well here comes my analysis paralysis and I realize there are so many option and now I'm thinking I might actually rather have a canoe. In the past I always just assumed I would get a sit on top kayak, and the ones I liked the best were 1k bucks or more. A few days ago I stumbled across Nutterbuster's video and he mentioned the benefits of the sit in kayaks vs the sit on top. Now after using the search function I see a lot of ya'll prefer the canoe. Here's my situation and what I want to do. Share your wisdom with a fellow saddle hunter. I have three kids, 10, 6, and 3. I have thought about getting the two oldest kids kayaks and a canoe for me, my wife and the 3yr old. I live on the Tennessee river and we would probably be going out on the river/lake/sloughs more than going down real shallow creeks. There are some good creeks here that tons of people kayak though and I imagine it has some shallow spots. Would it be compatible to use a canoe while the kids are on kayaks? I want to start using it to hunt out of. There are some places I could start using it right away for deer and turkey hunting. Whatever I get, I want it to be able to carry my deer out. I know you can float a deer behind a kayak or even on top of a sit on top maybe. I want to be able to carry it and use it by myself. Right now I have a 2006 Tundra double cab with a camper shell on the bed. I'm not real crazy about trying to get a 80-100lb set up on top of the truck. I also don't have any racks up there yet either. I really like the looks of the Swift pack boats boats buy my gosh there over 3k$. I'm seeing some fairly cheap canoes on Facebook marketplace but I'm unsure of what is the most desirable construction. Aluminum, fiberglass, the poly plastic stuff. I'm leaning towards whatever is most lightweight. Those swift boats are around 25lbs! Since I'll be helping my daughter buy hers I will need to find something for myself as cheap as I can. Are the $400 old town canoes a good option or should I find a fiberglass fixer upper. Or is aluminum a good option. Help me out!

 

[Weldabeast]

My 16 handles myself and a 12 and 9 year old good and handles my wife and 9 year old....all 4 is too cramped but still handles ok.....I think that's a good size or may need larger for what u want... I'm on the lookout for a shorter boat (12ish) for me to hunt out of....I learned how to do fiberglass and it's not too difficult so now I can confidently purchase those 50-100 dollars boats and fix them to like new......

 

[Blacksmith]

Ive flopped back and forth from canoe to yak several times .Like Nutter says the Yak is fast and light. I like the SOT for the space including a carp barrel although they are heavier. That all said, I like my Old Town Saranac the best. Not as fast but tracks well and the plastic is quieter than aluminum. I didnt like the plastic seats so I removed the front two and made ash thwarts instead, shaved off 7 ounces so I can wear a heavier saddle. I actually sit on a folding chair to get higher in the water. It's still really stable. Any of them are pretty easy to sell when you decide you don't like it. For those that use a Yak paddle, an awesome tip is put a pc of duct tape hanging down from the center of your paddle blade. No more water running down the shaft .

 

[aclawrence]

Anyone have a NuCanoe Frontier 12? It looks like a hybrid kayak canoe that would work for hunting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CarolinaDog]

I have a 16' Old town predator. Discontinued model but a good boat stable boat. Its 90 pounds but I have a carrier with lights that slips in my hitch receiver and extends my truck bed. Its an extra expense but it works well. There are definitely some lighter canoes out there and hulls have different designs that make some stable than others. I would do a little e research on hull design so you don't end with a super tippy boat with your wife and youngster. If I had to choose one between a canoe and kayak it would be the canoe all day.

 

[always89y]

I like the idea of a kayak for quick and quite, but I love the room, stability and easy in and out of a canoe. My son and I use a canoe a lot (we are in East TN). We are using an 18ft aluminium canoe we got locally off of market place. I mounted a canoe trolley on the back so 1 guy can easily load it and unload it.

This video (minute 2:36) shows the canoe and how we load it for some ideas.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[aclawrence]

I have a 16' Old town predator. Discontinued model but a good boat stable boat. Its 90 pounds but I have a carrier with lights that slips in my hitch receiver and extends my truck bed. Its an extra expense but it works well. There are definitely some lighter canoes out there and hulls have different designs that make some stable than others. I would do a little e research on hull design so you don't end with a super tippy boat with your wife and youngster. If I had to choose one between a canoe and kayak it would be the canoe all day.

I’ll have to research carriers and loading options. I think I’ve seen some racks with an arm that flips over the outside of the truck so you can lift one end up and then lift the other end. I’ll need something like that to get it up on top of my camper shell. I’d rather do that than have to use a trailer in case I have to make a last minute change of plans and not use the canoe. Good point on the hull designs. Speaking of designs I watched a few cedar strip builds on YouTube yesterday. I’m going to make a cedar canoe one day!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CarolinaDog]

Here’s mine on a friends truck. I’m having another one made because this one doesn’t fit my truck as well as his. It’s makes a great lumber carrier as well so I frequently use it for work. The next one will be wider.

Tail gate down obviously and I sit the canoe in the carrier upright with all my gear in it. back it down the boat ramp and unload it into the water similar to having it on a trailer. comes out the same way.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

All in all, you can do more with a canoe than you can with a kayak.
Each boat does things that the other won't do.
Hull design...a long canoe will track straight better than a shorter canoe.
But rocker allows a canoe to turn an maneuver easier.
There are 2 types of stability...initial stability, and final stability. Flat bottom canoes SEEM stable, until they are leaned (leaning a canoe is an important paddling skill), but initial stablity sacrifices final stability. A hull design with better final stability will feel tippy but it stabilize as the canoe is leaned...the flat bottom actually flips easier.
Aluminum boats are good beater boats, but IMO, they suck, especially the ones that have a keel. They are miserable to paddle on shallow streams.
Royalex hull boats are the best all around boats but they are a little heavy. My 16 foot royalex Wenonah weighs 68 pounds. My 16 foot kevlar Wenonah weighs 48 pounds, but kevlar are more of a flatwater boat...not really made for rocky streams. But they are a dream to paddle on lakes...expensive too.
If you will be using it by yourself, get some nice padded yokes for carrying it.
I've portaged my kevlar boat over a mile a few times. The padded yokes made it much more comfortable.
Last point, regardless of what boat you choose, learn proper paddling technique. Knowing basic skills can turn a boat that you hate into one you love.

 

[aclawrence]

Thanks for all the help in the above post. I went and picked up my fist canoe a few days ago. I had to drive a little ways to get it but I think I got a pretty good one. It’s an Old Town Camper 16’ royalex canoe. It supposedly weighs 59lbs. I think we’ll have a lot of family fun with this thing and hopeful I’ll be able to get in on some critters with it to. I took it out for the first time this morning and wow I’m going to have to practice on my paddling. I’ve been watching several videos but I’m going to need a lot more water time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MJH]

In my view, canoes are hands down better. They just carry more...

 

[Blacksmith]

I use a 14' Old Town and like it a lot. I use a yak paddle and IMO its hands down way easier to paddle. That Royalex is a good quality canoe. I do mostly bowfishing w/mine and sit in a folding chair to see better. It can be slid forward toward the center in very shallow water for less draft. You can get a stadium seat or a canoe seat for some back support that hooks over your seats. It will haul a lifesize buffalo so no problem w/a deer or hog inside.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Thanks for all the help in the above post. I went and picked up my fist canoe a few days ago. I had to drive a little ways to get it but I think I got a pretty good one. It’s an Old Town Camper 16’ royalex canoe. It supposedly weighs 59lbs. I think we’ll have a lot of family fun with this thing and hopeful I’ll be able to get in on some critters with it to. I took it out for the first time this morning and wow I’m going to have to practice on my paddling. I’ve been watching several videos but I’m going to need a lot more water time.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

3 excellent books are
Path of the Paddle
Paddle Your Own Canoe
Complete Wilderness Paddler
Very good instructional info in them. I'm amazed at how many people that own canoes have no clue how to paddle it. Blundering around in a canoe can be a miserable thing. Our paddle club calls tandem canoes "divorce boats" because of the constant bickering. My wife and I used to be that way before we learned technique. Now its a rewarding sense of accomplishment to maneuver down a rocky river.
A side benefit of learning to paddle is when you learn to read the water, you'll also be better at reading and predicting wind.

 

[gcr0003]

3 excellent books are
Path of the Paddle
Paddle Your Own Canoe
Complete Wilderness Paddler
Very good instructional info in them. I'm amazed at how many people that own canoes have no clue how to paddle it. Blundering around in a canoe can be a miserable thing. Our paddle club calls tandem canoes "divorce boats" because of the constant bickering. My wife and I used to be that way before we learned technique. Now its a rewarding sense of accomplishment to maneuver down a rocky river.
A side benefit of learning to paddle is when you learn to read the water, you'll also be better at reading and predicting wind.

Whats the woman up front suppose to do? Mine is a struggling rock navigator. *loud thump, "we hit a rock"... She is still a little slow at warning me before we hit things! I jest, my wife is my favorite canoeing buddy, followed closely by my dog.

Can the front person aid in steering at all while under way? We got to the point where I don't care which side she paddles on because I just j stroke or rudder and keep a solid straight heading but it would be nice when quick sharp turns are needed.

 

[aclawrence]

In my view, canoes are hands down better. They just carry more...

1200lb capacity!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[aclawrence]

I forgot to say I was paddling on a lake this morning. I was trying to do the J stroke but I kept having to switch sides with the paddle. When I was heading back in the wind picked up. I couldn’t believe how much it was pushing me around. Thanks for those book recommendations Tom I’ll check those out. I really want to become pretty proficient at it. Also all I have right now are some cheaper paddles so I’ll be looking to upgrade or build a nice one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kevlar]

I have an Old Town Canoe with a tolling motor that I use for myself and a buddy. It's a little big for me to handle solo, but if you have a hunting buddy its perfect. Stores all of our gear with no problem. It enables us to get into marshes and short water easier and quieter than larger boats. The trolling motor is nice on those 3.5 mile trips

 

[gcr0003]

I forgot to say I was paddling on a lake this morning. I was trying to do the J stroke but I kept having to switch sides with the paddle. When I was heading back in the wind picked up. I couldn’t believe how much it was pushing me around. Thanks for those book recommendations Tom I’ll check those out. I really want to become pretty proficient at it. Also all I have right now are some cheaper paddles so I’ll be looking to upgrade or build a nice one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One thing I did read about and watch videos on was that if you are solo paddling in a canoe if you get on your knees as far forward as you can and to one side of the back section (towards the middle of the canoe) you reduce the surface area touching the water and create a straight line of contact for the bottom of the canoe. The slight tilt will feel strange at first until you find the sweet spot but it is extremely stable. This also allows you to get a straight back stroke. The balance between that line and your stroke wil reduce the amount you need to j stroke. Additionally, moving forward will transfer your weight to the center and give you a little more control on high wind days and a nicer ride. I found it help me control going back and forth (left to right) as much. I expereinced this the first time I took the canoe out. It just so happened to be an extremely windy day on an large lake. I tried both methods and it makes a world of difference.






-im no expert, this was just my experience applying things I have read or seen.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Can the front person aid in steering at all while under way? We got to the point where I don't care which side she paddles on because I just j stroke or rudder and keep a solid straight heading but it would be nice when quick sharp turns are needed.

Absolutely the person in front aids in steering. In fact, I'd say the bow has as much control as the stern paddler.
Quick lesson...
Each paddler in a tandem canoe picks a side to paddle on and you do not change hands on the paddle, ie a left paddler keeps their right hand on the paddle at all times. The stern paddler ALWAYS paddles on one side (on side). The bow paddler paddles on the opposite side of the stern paddler the majority of the time, but the bow paddler will also do cross strokes (off side strokes). Meaning the bow paddler reaches across the boat and plants the paddle in the water and (usually) does what is called a cross draw. It's the only time when either (tandem) paddler changes the side they are paddling. If you see both paddlers constantly switching sides in the attempt to steer or go straight then you know they don't have a clue. Even a solo paddler doesn't change hands. Cross strokes are done without changing the grip on the paddle.

Basic strokes;
Stern... Forward, reverse, draw (on side) pry (on side), sweep, J stroke. Some of these will almost blend from one to the other.
Bow... Forward, reverse, draw (on side and off side), sweep, prying can be risky in the bow because if it's shallow and the paddle hits the bottom during the pry, bad things can happen.

There are 4 ways a canoe can move, obviously forward and backward, but they also pivot and side-slip (move 90 degrees sideways). Those last 2 are rarely used by the uninformed, but they are super important to learn.

High and low brace is also very important "strokes" (not really a stroke, per se). A brace stabilizes the canoe in waves or rapids. A low brace stops the canoe from rolling "on side" and a high brace stops the canoe from rolling "off side".
The stabilizing effect that a brace has is substantial.
The best place for the paddle to be in rough water is in the water. Shying away from waves or rapids does absolutely nothing positive.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

I forgot to say I was paddling on a lake this morning. I was trying to do the J stroke but I kept having to switch sides with the paddle. When I was heading back in the wind picked up. I couldn’t believe how much it was pushing me around. Thanks for those book recommendations Tom I’ll check those out. I really want to become pretty proficient at it. Also all I have right now are some cheaper paddles so I’ll be looking to upgrade or build a nice one.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

2 things when solo paddling in the wind...
1st is boat trim. Not enough weight in either end of the canoe makes that end act like a sail.
2nd, when paddling into the wind, its often best to not paddle directly into the wind. Paddle just off-wind on your strong side. Your on side strokes tend to turn naturally turn the canoe to your off side, but you can usually find a nice balance that allows you to continuing forward stroke (with fewer correction strokes) when you angle the canoe just slightly to your on side. The wind actually becomes your ally toward keeping the boat heading straight with fewer corrections.

Paddles...Like everything else in this world, top end gear is expensive paddles are no different. Graphite paddles are really sweet but costly. A decent mid cost paddle is well worth it when you compare them to junk paddles. You might make a couple thousand stroke in a day. A cheap paddle feels like a 2x4. Keep the junk paddle for a spare...always carry a spare paddle.