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Tell me about Mammut Smart 2.0

JBDaddy

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Jan 21, 2018
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729
Location
Lenawee, MI
I have not seen the nuts-and-bolts of a Safeguard. Your explanation of its function as compared to the Smart was helpful, thanks! Here’s what still gives me pause about it, and maybe I’m being stupid and missing something critical but this is my current viewpoint: I know the talking point comparing the Lifeguard and Safeguard is the inclusion of a spring, with the Safeguard purposefully lacking that spring. But isn’t there still a spring in the Safeguard handle? If not, how does the handle return to tension when released? (Not trying to be a smart ass, just trying to wrap my mind around the concept. Mechanical things aren’t my forte.) My assumption (if correct) about the handle spring’s existence is what concerns me. It’s an improbable long shot, but the failure of that mechanism if not backed up could send the user into a potential free fall. For that reason, there’s something more comforting to me about the Smart 2.0 being a hunk of metal which I can eyeball instantly and know if it’s tipping a certain direction that rope will be pinched or released vs. an unseen component in the Safeguard which I’m hoping is in good condition and operates correctly. But if I’m wrong about the handle spring, please correct me. I don’t want to spread misinformation when this subject is dangerous enough without false claims being online made by some novice tree climbing hobbyist (me).
Here's some pics to help me explain... I've purposely left the "cover" of the safeguard open so you can see what's going on inside. Normally the "front" black piece I'm holding open would be rotated around to shut the device, and a carabiner would go through the holes in back/front covers to hold it all together and prevent the rope from escaping. But easier to see this way...

opened (Medium).jpg
Here you can see the rope path in normal use. The line extending up out of frame on the left side is going up to my girth hitch around a tree (or hanging on a door in this case). It goes under the "knuckle" in a U shape, then up and over the right side. The line extending down out of frame on the right goes to where I'd have an autoblock, brake hand, etc.

So the rope path is a sideways S shape. On the right side, you can see where it gets pinched by the spur shape of the knuckle, and the block of metal on the right. Pressure from the carabiner (down, connected to your bridge/harness) )pulls the pinch tighter and stops rope from moving through. As long as the carabiner is weighted, it locks up due to the pinch.

spring lever (Medium).jpg
Here's where the safeguard has a spring. The lever I'm holding open is sprung so that it pull down/shut. Look back at the 1st picture, you can see it's laying flat, behind the rope, and partially obscured from view by the back-side black plate. This is the only spring... it keeps that lever handle down so you can't accidentally pull it open (rotating counter clockwise in this pic)

lever open (Medium).jpg

And here's why there's a spring-- look at the rope pinch point when I'm pulling the lever -- it's practically gone. Rope slides right through there as the lever pulls the whole knuckle counter-clockwise and opens the gap.

I don't have a Mammut Smart 2.0 or I'd show pics of how it's similarly creating a pinch, just of different construction.

Both devices come down to the same principle: you're trusting they squeeze your rope tight enough to hold you up. I'm over 250lbs and the safeguard holds me fine. More often than not I don't even use an autoblock because my substantial down force pulling that carabiner pinches the rope so much it's not moving -- and yet the lever action is enough relief to the pinch that I can securely control rope sliding through there to rappel down without additional aid.

Unweighted however - like if I'm standing on a platform and there's no force pulling down the carabiner side of the safeguard, and rope slides right through. As soon as it gets weighted again, it locks up though. If you're concerned about rope slip while standing, you can put a safety knot in the down-side of your rope, and that won't fit through the device, so it won't slip.
 

Marmuzz

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SH Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Messages
593
Location
Pennsylvania
Here's some pics to help me explain... I've purposely left the "cover" of the safeguard open so you can see what's going on inside. Normally the "front" black piece I'm holding open would be rotated around to shut the device, and a carabiner would go through the holes in back/front covers to hold it all together and prevent the rope from escaping. But easier to see this way...

View attachment 60827
Here you can see the rope path in normal use. The line extending up out of frame on the left side is going up to my girth hitch around a tree (or hanging on a door in this case). It goes under the "knuckle" in a U shape, then up and over the right side. The line extending down out of frame on the right goes to where I'd have an autoblock, brake hand, etc.

So the rope path is a sideways S shape. On the right side, you can see where it gets pinched by the spur shape of the knuckle, and the block of metal on the right. Pressure from the carabiner (down, connected to your bridge/harness) )pulls the pinch tighter and stops rope from moving through. As long as the carabiner is weighted, it locks up due to the pinch.

View attachment 60828
Here's where the safeguard has a spring. The lever I'm holding open is sprung so that it pull down/shut. Look back at the 1st picture, you can see it's laying flat, behind the rope, and partially obscured from view by the back-side black plate. This is the only spring... it keeps that lever handle down so you can't accidentally pull it open (rotating counter clockwise in this pic)

View attachment 60826

And here's why there's a spring-- look at the rope pinch point when I'm pulling the lever -- it's practically gone. Rope slides right through there as the lever pulls the whole knuckle counter-clockwise and opens the gap.

I don't have a Mammut Smart 2.0 or I'd show pics of how it's similarly creating a pinch, just of different construction.

Both devices come down to the same principle: you're trusting they squeeze your rope tight enough to hold you up. I'm over 250lbs and the safeguard holds me fine. More often than not I don't even use an autoblock because my substantial down force pulling that carabiner pinches the rope so much it's not moving -- and yet the lever action is enough relief to the pinch that I can securely control rope sliding through there to rappel down without additional aid.

Unweighted however - like if I'm standing on a platform and there's no force pulling down the carabiner side of the safeguard, and rope slides right through. As soon as it gets weighted again, it locks up though. If you're concerned about rope slip while standing, you can put a safety knot in the down-side of your rope, and that won't fit through the device, so it won't slip.
Thanks a lot for the photos and very thorough explanation. I can see now just how similar the Safeguard and Smart are in concept.
 

Marmuzz

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SH Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Messages
593
Location
Pennsylvania
I have found that using twin 6-7mm lines is the only reliable way to hang in it solo, maybe the sideways pressure helps. If you hang on your rappel line the hitch above, you can instantly descend to ground. A Figure 8 can be used the same way and doesn’t put a bend in the rope, which is helpful if using your foot as an ascender.
View attachment 60825
Sorry, I am feeling dense but not understanding this. It looks like the cord above the Smart isn’t connected to it at all? And are you saying to rig a friction hitch above the device to maintain hold and then just pinch that knot (like an autoblock) to allow rope to feed through and rappel down?
 

Brocky

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Joined
Sep 27, 2020
Messages
892
Location
de mitten
Sorry, I am feeling dense but not understanding this. It looks like the cord above the Smart isn’t connected to it at all? And are you saying to rig a friction hitch above the device to maintain hold and then just pinch that knot (like an autoblock) to allow rope to feed through and rappel down?
Yes, that is it,the friction hitch straddles the Smart and clipped to carabiner, a clearer picture hopefully.
C66F6F5F-5D0F-418F-8050-6BFF07E667E9.jpeg
Also didn’t find any benefit in using the braking insert, it would have to touch the rope to force it to grab.
 
Last edited:

FrankNess14

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Joined
May 17, 2020
Messages
488
Location
Savannah, GA
Yes, that is it,the friction hitch straddles the Smart and clipped to carabiner, a clearer picture hopefully.
View attachment 60851
Also didn’t find any benefit in using the braking insert, it would have to touch the rope to force it to grab.
[mention]Marmuzz [/mention] before you buy a smart to try this, if you have one, try it with any ATC style device you have. Will work the same just with less braking/friction in the device than a smart would have.


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woodsdog2

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SH Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2019
Messages
3,735
Just seeing this now. Yes sir I used it most of this season. Not to ascend but rappel with. Like it a lot. Much more cost effective, quiet and available than the Mad Rock Safeguard.
 
Last edited:

Marmuzz

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Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Messages
593
Location
Pennsylvania
Yes, that is it,the friction hitch straddles the Smart and clipped to carabiner, a clearer picture hopefully.
View attachment 60851
Also didn’t find any benefit in using the braking insert, it would have to touch the rope to force it to grab.
That picture makes more sense to me, thanks. So let me break this down stupid simple and see if I have it right:

  1. The photo illustrates the entire setup utilizing a schwabisch/distel/etc. above the device, with no other backup friction hitch below on a lineman’s belt.
  2. As long as you have tension on the carabiner (lean or sit in the saddle), the rope will be pinched between the biner and the Smart, holding you still.
  3. If you pull the right side of the rope, it forces the Smart to move up and automatically tends the friction hitch.
  4. But, if you fall, move, or even stand, causing too much rope to be fed out the left side, the carabiner’s motion moving down (i.e. you shifting or falling) will choke the friction hitch and make it grab.
  5. Unless- you squeeze the top of the friction hitch to let rope pass and you begin rappelling.
  6. …did I miss anything? That the gist?
 

Marmuzz

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Feb 22, 2021
Messages
593
Location
Pennsylvania
[mention]Marmuzz [/mention] before you buy a smart to try this, if you have one, try it with any ATC style device you have. Will work the same just with less braking/friction in the device than a smart would have.


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Right now all I have is a figure 8. But it’s nice to know I can test the concept if I come across an ATC device.
 

FrankNess14

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May 17, 2020
Messages
488
Location
Savannah, GA


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Brocky

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Sep 27, 2020
Messages
892
Location
de mitten
That picture makes more sense to me, thanks. So let me break this down stupid simple and see if I have it right:

  1. The photo illustrates the entire setup utilizing a schwabisch/distel/etc. above the device, with no other backup friction hitch below on a lineman’s belt.
  2. As long as you have tension on the carabiner (lean or sit in the saddle), the rope will be pinched between the biner and the Smart, holding you still.
  3. If you pull the right side of the rope, it forces the Smart to move up and automatically tends the friction hitch.
  4. But, if you fall, move, or even stand, causing too much rope to be fed out the left side, the carabiner’s motion moving down (i.e. you shifting or falling) will choke the friction hitch and make it grab.
  5. Unless- you squeeze the top of the friction hitch to let rope pass and you begin rappelling.
  6. …did I miss anything? That the gist?
That’s the idea, can stop by rotating device down, or letting go of hitch. However, I don’t think it would be of good use for a linemen’s belt that you stated in Number 1.
 

Marmuzz

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Feb 22, 2021
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593
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Pennsylvania
That’s the idea, can stop by rotating device down, or letting go of hitch. However, I don’t think it would be of good use for a linemen’s belt that you stated in Number 1.
What I’m about to ask probably seems obvious so bear with me. I’m just having a hard time picturing it because I’ve only ever rappelled from a Figure 8 or carabiner/munter with a backup on the lineman’s loop. Furthermore, when I’m climbing and hunting, I’m hanging off a prusik. That prusik bites hard and it takes a LOT of effort sometimes to loosen that thing, even when unweighted after I’ve loaded it heavy. I’m bringing that frame of reference to this idea of rappelling from a friction hitch above your bridge connection. I can’t imagine trying to rappel on a prusik if my full weight is choking it tight on the rope. (Unless using a different friction hitch greatly improves the release.)

So you’re saying by tilting the Smart it releases enough pressure on the friction hitch above it (as long as it’s not a standard prusik) that you can then simultaneously squeeze and release the hitch and safely rappel? And if you go hands free it all locks up again?
 

Marmuzz

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Yeah, I saw that, thanks for calling it out! I’d kinda been ignoring all Safeguard posts since that wasn’t my tool but what the OP started with actually seems very very close to the method I’m thinking about here.
 

Brocky

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It’s only dumb if you don’t understand and don’t ask.
If you’re hanging in midair, which hitch you use matters, the more easily released the better. Putting your weight on the device before releasing the hitch is the strategy if you’re standing on something. You can try it with your figure eight and a piece of cord. Sport mode of Eight usage shown, just need to open carabiner to put rope in.
Also the mystery of the disappearing hitch cord from first picture solved.
2730F44B-5ADF-4297-AC01-7C64D2D2D5C9.jpeg
 

Marmuzz

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It’s only dumb if you don’t understand and don’t ask.
If you’re hanging in midair, which hitch you use matters, the more easily released the better. Putting your weight on the device before releasing the hitch is the strategy if you’re standing on something. You can try it with your figure eight and a piece of cord. Sport mode of Eight usage shown, just need to open carabiner to put rope in.
Also the mystery of the disappearing hitch cord from first picture solved.
View attachment 60894
I will have to experimented with that sport mode on the eight in my basement tonight. Is that a distel you have tied?

Edit: Lol I totally did not see the hitch cord eyes on your first pic, they blended right into the black carabiner
 

Marmuzz

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How are guys keeping the Smart quiet? I assume there is some click-clack noise with the carabiner moving in the device?
 

Brocky

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It’s the Michoacán, the second best hitch I know for easy breaking.
There is just a slight sliding noise, the rope keeps the carabiner from clanging.
 

Bstrong

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How are guys keeping the Smart quiet? I assume there is some click-clack noise with the carabiner moving in the device?
I used a couple of strips of hockey tape. Works well


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Brocky

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So what’s the first?
The Sticht Hitch, doesn’t bind up if adjusted, to the point you can descend on it without a device for added friction. I only use a tubular belay device for long, or quick emergency descents. The small piece of pipe makes tending easier.
DA72DC21-3376-4744-AFCE-0D1C8A0C91D4.jpeg
 
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