Tethered in Petersen's Bowhunting Equipment Issue

[Jefferson10940]

I see the guys at Tethrd addressing concerns and taking the concerns seriously. I appreciate that. I also appreciate the transparency of this process. I have never seen any company make a video of the testing being done. Answering questions on a public forum for everyone to see. This is all a step in the right direction.


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[SaddleUpPartner!]

It's a nice article and they mention Areohunter, Wildedge, Tethrd and JX3. It's in the June 2019 issue. The article is called Saddle up & Ride and it covers saddles past and present and saddle safety and comfort. It's a must read.

They knew not to use my name

 

[BayouBeauxhunter]

I don't suspect anyone is being called out. I think there are questions being asked, given the content being sent out in the world. It's not a double standard - Tethrd published content claiming they did some testing. People asked questions. There's no questions to ask of anyone else because they are not at the table to be questioned. Also, they SHOULD be questioned. And to my eye, they've responded to the questions being asked of them with good information. I also acknowledge that there's a subtext to the conversation that's largely being ignored or skimmed over. But for the average guy looking in here, they'll get some good technical information. What is the extreme aversion to conversation these days?

I don’t have any aversion to conversation. I just think it’s funny that when tethrd does put out hard testing numbers they aren’t good enough. I’m ok with that as more testing is always better. I just find the whole argument that we don’t question any other company because they’ve been in the business 30 years weak and hypocritical. Anytime something new is put out, there could be a design flaw. Even if using industry standard materials, a design flaw changes everything and without having specific testing on a particular product you don’t know for sure if it’s safe. OOAL, with 30 years experience, put out a platform on the market with an admitted design flaw and I don’t see any threads asking them what their testing numbers are. Does anyone know for sure if they’ve fixed the issue with numbers to back it up? Maybe they have them but no one is asking to see them and seem perfectly happy. It’s just my observation of the situation, that’s all.

 

[flinginairos]

I don’t have any aversion to conversation. I just think it’s funny that when tethrd does put out hard testing numbers they aren’t good enough. I’m ok with that as more testing is always better. I just find the whole argument that we don’t question any other company because they’ve been in the business 30 years weak and hypocritical. Anytime something new is put out, there could be a design flaw. Even if using industry standard materials, a design flaw changes everything and without having specific testing on a particular product you don’t know for sure if it’s safe. OOAL, with 30 years experience, put out a platform on the market with an admitted design flaw and I don’t see any threads asking them what their testing numbers are. Does anyone know for sure if they’ve fixed the issue with numbers to back it up? Maybe they have them but no one is asking to see them and seem perfectly happy. It’s just my observation of the situation, that’s all.

I agree. Just because a company has years in business doesn’t mean they should be exempt from testing of new products. Maybe Vtbow didn’t really mean it that way, but that’s how I read it.


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[kyler1945]

It seems like there are several issues on the table, and some are getting conflated. My personal takeaways here are:

- There's no place in this conversation for misguided whataboutisms. Although the post was started about a magazine article, it went on a direct tangent of testing of Tethrd products. Asking "What about OOAL? What about AH?" is not productive. It highlights why it is important to be thoughtful and precise in speech/writing. These are valid questions - but they should be asked of those companies in a different context.

- It appears that this testing was done AFTER products were released to consumers. While I have enough exposure to the equipment and its limitations to form a fairly educated opinion that "everything's fine", not everyone does, and it doesn't mean that it is. Let this be a lesson to anyone participating in hunting/climbing as a hobby - your safety is YOUR responsibility, and you should probably be asking questions and researching and thinking through these things before acting. Your incentives are NOT aligned with the incentives of the folks providing you with gear.

-Tethrd marketed on the "good ole boy" angle - for saddle hunters by saddle hunters. They took advantage of that image, and it was a savvy move. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you reach a certain point of sophistication with your business, you're going to be asked to wear your big boy pants. They are there, and they are asking to be. This is no longer an enterprise where the sole purpose is to have new saddle gear. They're here to make money. And with that comes some additional responsibility. I do think some of the questions being asked of them could be framed differently. I think their approach could probably be tweaked as well. But ultimately, the efforts are advancing the ball to the right end zone.

 

[Vtbow]

I agree. Just because a company has years in business doesn’t mean they should be exempt from testing of new products. Maybe Vtbow didn’t really mean it that way, but that’s how I read it.


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I apologize it it read that way. At no time did I say they should be "Exempt" from testing of new products.

"1) Tethrd is a completely new company, first time manufacturing/sourcing etc. Other companies(just an example OOAL, or lonewolf with the new assisn, etc) have been manufacturing, testing and selling TREESTANDS for years. They have established relationships for sourcing, testing facilities, and specific product launch protocols. I believe OOAL was originally part of the TMA(not sure if they are anymore, that would be a question for them)."
Real industry experience matters in manufacturing and in a consumer driven market. Relationships with suppliers matter. Being in business and HAVING THE CAPITAL on hand to get these things right, or change/fix them in a timely fashion makes a difference.

I"m much more likely to trust a mechanic thats been working on subarus for 20 years than one who is trained on Fords, but has done ball joints in a Suby a couple times--even if they made youtube videos when then did the ball joints. Same scenario, regardless of which mechanic. If they said "I have the latest and greatest ball joints made out of "amsteel" I"d say "awesome, I"ve heard of them a little, but why are they better? Have any of your customers used them? how long did they last? oh, you dont know, they've only been available commercially in this application for 6 months?...hmm....Sounds cool, I don't know though. But if that mechanic offered me Moog ball joints I have name recognition and they are already associated with safe, quality products that I and friends have trusted in the past. I dont need to see the data, though I know its out there if I needed it, and it would be available for me to peruse BEFORE I made the purchase. Tethrd knows brand recognition and trust is important, and those who have been in the industry longer have more consumer trust. That's why they used "TMA Testing" in their testing video title instead of just "Tethrd Testing". People are familiar with the TMA and they are a Standard in the industry.


The below two points had noting to do with being an established company.
2) Tethrd had sourcing and manufacturing issues from the beginning, they over promised and under delivered in many different ways. I think that leads to more valid scrutiny from consumers in general.
3)Tethrd launched and sold products prior to really having them manufactured and communication channels established. This meant early adopters were really doing a lot of the real life testing for them, and people representing Tethrd were not always on the same page in answering how to, or funtionality question. The perfect example is "toehook the Predator to get it to lock in tight"...... no wait..."do not toehoook the predator".

 

[Nutterbuster]

I believe he’s referring to the handful of Gen1 Predators that had issues. Not sure what he means by launching before it was ready to beat the completion. As far as I know there wasn’t another platform being developed at that time.


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Yes. Gen 1s, mine included, had issues. Ernie took good care of me and the other guys that came forward with problems, and I sincerely appreciate his conduct there.

But it was still a failure, and a potentially dangerous one. Also, per post 79, at least one platform did not test at the advertised 300lbs. That would concern me if I was a bigger dude.

Combine this with the fact that in the below video, the manufacturer shows fully committing your weight to the platform; with slack in a tether utilizing a ropeman.

But, in this post, the manufacturer claims the platform is "a positioning aid."

https://saddlehunter.com/community/index.php?threads/a-secret.6521/post-119808

For me, that just doesn't inspire confidence. I believe it is issues like this that make some people question Tethrd a little more than other companies. More extensive testing might have led to a more robust product being launched. Which brings me to the next point.

There was not another platform being developed to my knowledge. But according the the below video, Aero Hunter had a "mesh kestrel prototype" in development during the 2017-2018 hunting season:

Saddlepalooza 2018 in February is to my knowledge when Greg and Ernie birthed Tethrd. Boswell, who is closely affiliated with Aero Hunter, was there as well. The infamous "A secret" thread launched in May. Preorders for the mantis followed shortly thereafter.

While very much a "he said, she said" argument, Boswell and others affiliated with Aero Hunter claimed that Tethrd deliberately launched fast in order to beat them to the draw. The conversation was quite heated, and a lot of it was deleted. Not sure where exactly it is now, or if it even survived. There was also a lively discussion about the matter on social media.

It's not possible to conclusively say that Tethrd deliberately beat Aero Hunter to the punch, but they definitely knew it was coming. The kite did launch very shortly thereafter. Aero Hunter kinda faded out on this forum. Haven't seen a post from Boswell or Sophia since.

The timing and circumstances seem to indicate that Tethrd made a strategic push to launch as soon as possible, and I do not think it unreasonable to conclude that testing may have been rushed.

I believe this is why Tethrd is more "under the microscope" than other companies. They launched very quickly, immediately had a product issue, and have pushed their product very hard and very successfully to lots of eager consumers. There are a lot of very enthusiastic new guys using products as a result of Tethrds aggressive marketing, and they don't always seem to question things the way a lot of us do.

I've personally received some flack for using and "promoting" carbon bolts without testing them. I think I would have received much more pushback from the community had I enthusiastically sold a few thousand sets of them to new folks.

That's all for the testing side of things. Now for something I'll probably regret posting. Hold my beer....

I've met and liked pretty much all of the Tethrd "founding fathers." I sincerely wish I still wanted my Tethrd tramp-stamp. I don't wish ill on Greg, Ernie, Bassboy, Carl, or Flingin. I haven't said a whole lot because this is my happy place. My "hunting club buddies." Who wants to have bad blood in a hunting camp?

But take the faces out of the picture, and I don't care for Tethrd much. I find the marketing depressingly mainstream. Almost as bad as Mike Waddell pushing the latest, must-have scent control spray . I have misgivings about their launch. I prefer Jx3's and Aero Hunter's slow growth and faster product delivery mentality. I thought the lawsuit thing was kinda funny and kinda sad, because they've apparently alienated Aero Hunter, Wild Edge, and OOAL. And we're seeing testing done now as a marketing strategy, not a precaution.

All in all, the company Tethrd seems hell-bent on making as much money as they can as fast as they can, while still trying to present themselves as a small "good ole boy" endeavor.

And I totally get capitalism. For it, not against it. Making a pile of money is as American as deer hunting. But rushing things and stepping on toes is just not my thing.

And that's all. I've been sitting on that for a while. Suspect several folks have. Maybe I've come off as snarky a few times in the past, if so I apologize.

Sorry for stirring a can of worms, and totally derailing the thread. Mods and admin, feel free to delete.

Who's holding my beer?

 

[BayouBeauxhunter]

It seems like there are several issues on the table, and some are getting conflated. My personal takeaways here are:

- There's no place in this conversation for misguided whataboutisms. Although the post was started about a magazine article, it went on a direct tangent of testing of Tethrd products. Asking "What about OOAL? What about AH?" is not productive. It highlights why it is important to be thoughtful and precise in speech/writing. These are valid questions - but they should be asked of those companies in a different context.

- It appears that this testing was done AFTER products were released to consumers. While I have enough exposure to the equipment and its limitations to form a fairly educated opinion that "everything's fine", not everyone does, and it doesn't mean that it is. Let this be a lesson to anyone participating in hunting/climbing as a hobby - your safety is YOUR responsibility, and you should probably be asking questions and researching and thinking through these things before acting. Your incentives are NOT aligned with the incentives of the folks providing you with gear.

-Tethrd marketed on the "good ole boy" angle - for saddle hunters by saddle hunters. They took advantage of that image, and it was a savvy move. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you reach a certain point of sophistication with your business, you're going to be asked to wear your big boy pants. They are there, and they are asking to be. This is no longer an enterprise where the sole purpose is to have new saddle gear. They're here to make money. And with that comes some additional responsibility. I do think some of the questions being asked of them could be framed differently. I think their approach could probably be tweaked as well. But ultimately, the efforts are advancing the ball to the right end zone.

I’m not sure what you mean about a direct tangent of testing Tethrd’s products. For the record Vtbow questioned the safety of tethrd products at the very beginning of the post. Ernie chimed in that new testing had been conducted, then someone asked to see the testing. It wasn’t till then that the conversation focused mostly on testing. Also, Im not personally asking about others’ products and don’t really care what their numbers are. I was just simply wondering why I haven’t seen anyone asking about other companies’ numbers on any forum in any context.
Bottom line is tethrd did do some initial testing on their own products prior to release and they continue to do new testing. Their products have been out for a year. They had a product that had issues and it was fixed. There were no catastrophic failures on any product and no one was injured with their products. I feel confident we will continue to get information about amsteel used as a bridge but with the current testing and the fact that people are on multiple years of using the same amsteel bridge, there is no immediate concern about continuing to do so. The worst thing that may occur is the recommendation is for a lower life span recommendation for the bridge than saddle and the consumer cuts it off and adds something else for little cost. Once again the most important thing to do is inspect your rope often. If you are relying on the factory specs telling you your rope should be good for 7 years or whatever is recommended then that’s probably more dangerous.

 

[EricS]

Wow I’ve been busy this week and didn’t keep up with this thread. Never thought it would have taken the turns it has. Thanks to everyone for keeping it respectful and informative. Lots of really good questions and answers. Testing is important for the manufacture and consumer. Tethrd publishing their testing opens some items for scrutiny but has huge marketing value also. I don’t know if another saddle manufacturer has done any of this testing but if they have they haven’t published a video. Experience in manufacturing does count for a lot. Most manufacturers are using components that have already been tested in similar use. . Tethrd showed some innovation and used a material that hasn’t been tested for our useage. Now it has and that’s great. I would want to test some Amstel that has extensive wear just to see how much of the original strength is retained after wear. I think it’s just something that will need to be changed every few years but that’s something only time and further testing will tell. Everything has a lifespan.