Thoughts on most recent poll results, deer hunting success, tree climbing risk

[BTaylor]

Question for everyone who takes issue with me singling out two specific demographics in regards to risk:

What are the downsides to me pointing out as you get older and bigger, you're more likely to get hurt, and that the risk of more severe injury also increases? Honestly. I think we should get the negatives of saying that out loud on the table.

Another question.

What is the upside of denying, downplaying, and otherwise taking a stance against pointing those things out?

Read this after my last response. There is not a thing at all wrong with discussion of the risk associated with age or weight relative to climbing to hunt. In fact I would say it is highly important information to discuss and educate on. Again my issue is where you say I dont think anyone over x age should climb to hunt or whatever amount over weight. Consider for a moment if game and fish agencies adopted that mindset, you are a year away from hitting that age and have always hunted elevated, have taken good care of yourself and gotten educated on good gear and ways to mitigate risk while climbing to hunt but next year because of some preconceived arbitrary date you wont be able to legally hunt elevated. F that. If you want to stop climbing because you reach a certain age or weight, that is your right. But it should not ever be mandated to you by anyone else.

 

[Nutterbuster]

What age, what physical condition, what mental condition, what experience level, etc.

What does that have to do with:

What are the downsides to me pointing out as you get older and bigger, you're more likely to get hurt, and that the risk of more severe injury also increases?

What is the upside of denying, downplaying, and otherwise taking a stance against pointing those things out?

 

[LAKY]

What does that have to do with:

People have different capabilities at different ages, physical conditions, and experience levels. You can't just say if you're this age you should hunt from the ground.

 

[Still Kicking]

I am old and not offended. I have been obese (in my 40's) and not offended. I will probably die soon based upon family history and health history. I could die in my sleep, in the Post Office, or in my saddle. I have responded to exactly four hunting accidents. Two were tree stand falls (without safety harness). One was a gun shot and one was a near drowning. For comparison, I could not begin to tell you how many calls I have responded to for falls in the bathroom. I am certain it would be several hundred. It would include old, young, obese, fit, and both male, and female. Several were fatal. It NEVER hurts to remind people to be safe, so be careful hunting and EXTRA careful in your bathroom.

 

[kyler1945]

Read this after my last response. There is not a thing at all wrong with discussion of the risk associated with age or weight relative to climbing to hunt. In fact I would say it is highly important information to discuss and educate on. Again my issue is where you say I dont think anyone over x age should climb to hunt or whatever amount over weight. Consider for a moment if game and fish agencies adopted that mindset, you are a year away from hitting that age and have always hunted elevated, have taken good care of yourself and gotten educated on good gear and ways to mitigate risk while climbing to hunt but next year because of some preconceived arbitrary date you wont be able to legally hunt elevated. F that. If you want to stop climbing because you reach a certain age or weight, that is your right. But it should not ever be mandated to you by anyone else.

Ah. I see where we might be disconnected.

I am not interested in mandating anything. I want regulators nowhere near this topic. I’m interested in educating my brethren.

I gave my opinion on some loose ideas of when it wouldn't make sense for me to continue to climb trees to hunt. Two things: That wasn't a prescription or mandate for anyone else; and my mind is open to being changed as I get older.

I'm not saying these things expecting Mr. Greenjeans to take away the olds' and the bigs' right to climb a tree. I'm not even expecting those two groups of folks to stop climbing trees. I'm just hoping that some members of our little community, especially those in the two groups described, might read this discussion, and think twice about what they're doing.


Where you went with this is so far from what I have in mind. I don't know what to tell ya there, other than that you're wrong.

 

[kyler1945]

Also, no one who has taken exception to what I’m saying has answered my very straightforward questions:

What’s the downside of pointing out a rather robust notion that older and bigger people are going to be more at risk for injury engaging in athletic activity(specifically climbing trees), and are at greater risks of those injuries being severe, when compared with younger smaller cohorts?

What’s the upside of downplaying, refuting, naysaying, denying these rather benign ideas?

 

[HuskerInIowa]

Also, no one who has taken exception to what I’m saying has answered my very straightforward questions:

What’s the downside of pointing out a rather robust notion that older and bigger people are going to be more at risk for injury engaging in athletic activity(specifically climbing trees), and are at greater risks of those injuries being severe, when compared with younger smaller cohorts?

What’s the upside of downplaying, refuting, naysaying, denying these rather benign ideas?

I’ll likely going to just mute this thread for several reasons but here are my thoughts at this point.
1) The purpose of your polls was to get enough “data” to tell people on a forum built for saddle hunting that hunting from an elevated position is dumb in most instances.
2) Many saddles are advertised for different sizes of people. I’m confident they can support the weight for the “bigger” people you are concerned for. Older people tend to know more than me, I’ll not be telling them what they should and shouldn’t do.
3) As my friend once said; don’t yuck someone else’s yum. If you don’t like venison that’s not cooked to the temp you like but everyone else is enjoying it don’t eat. You just can’t tell the host how you’d do it they’d be way safer if they only ate well done beef. A lot of us have thought about the risk and still prefer that style.

 

[Nutterbuster]

The first rule of saddle club is we don't talk about the downsides of pointing out that older and bigger people are going to be more at risk for injury engaging in athletic activity, compared to younger and smaller cohorts.

The second rule is we do not color on the walls, as it is difficult to remove.

 

[Bdwilliams]

I didn't plow through all of the posts but I get what @kyler1945 is saying and agree.

We, as a community, have come to the conclusion that to kill a deer we need to be elevated but generally don't enjoy the climb. The risk of injury from hunting at height is low but not zero (hunting injuries often involve tree stand). There are methods to do it that are safer than others, especially when you consider personal limitations and abilities (don't get me started on big, ol boys one-sticking and learning to rappell from YouTube videos). But generally we assume getting up a tree is a necessary evil.

The question of "is the juice with the squeeze" is valid. For a lot of guys (think of the average hunter's age and physical fitness level), it probably isn't. My first few deer were killed from the ground. They ate the same as deer I kill from a saddle and platform now.

 

[Vtbow]

The first rule of saddle club is we don't talk about the downsides of pointing out that older and bigger people are going to be more at risk for injury engaging in athletic activity, compared to younger and smaller cohorts.

The second rule is we do not color on the walls, as it is difficult to remove.

The third is we ignore reccomendations and safety protocol prescribed by manufacturers of products we use...cause we know better, and we're not using them for what they designed them for anyway...so how do they know best?

 

[Vtbow]

I didn't plow through all of the posts but I get what @kyler1945 is saying and agree.

We, as a community, have come to the conclusion that to kill a deer we need to be elevated but generally don't enjoy the climb. The risk of injury from hunting at height is low but not zero (hunting injuries often involve tree stand). There are methods to do it that are safer than others, especially when you consider personal limitations and abilities (don't get me started on big, ol boys one-sticking and learning to rappell from YouTube videos). But generally we assume getting up a tree is a necessary evil.

The question of "is the juice with the squeeze" is valid. For a lot of guys (think of the average hunter's age and physical fitness level), it probably isn't. My first few deer were killed from the ground. They ate the same as deer I kill from a saddle and platform now.

Thank you for this well thought out and grounded post.

 

[sweats]

I'm not overweight anymore, but I am old relative to many on the forum. I can definitely attest that I am now more injury prone and slower to heal than in my younger days. That's across the board.

Case in point. I was out hiking and the creek was high. Given that my boots needed to be resealed based on the prior day's hike, I decided to walk across a tree that had conveniently fallen across the creek. I lost my balance midway and despite not falling all the way off, the jerking motion threw my back out moderately.

Minor things like that would not have phased me even 10 years ago.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

 

[Plebe]

I am old and not offended. I have been obese (in my 40's) and not offended. I will probably die soon based upon family history and health history. I could die in my sleep, in the Post Office, or in my saddle. I have responded to exactly four hunting accidents. Two were tree stand falls (without safety harness). One was a gun shot and one was a near drowning. For comparison, I could not begin to tell you how many calls I have responded to for falls in the bathroom. I am certain it would be several hundred. It would include old, young, obese, fit, and both male, and female. Several were fatal. It NEVER hurts to remind people to be safe, so be careful hunting and EXTRA careful in your bathroom.

Indeed...

Hunting bullet went 900 yards, through shed and into a home, court documents say
According to court documents, the bullet traveled through the shed and into the northeast portion of the house -- the location of the bathroom -- into the standup shower.

Hunting bullet went 900 yards, through shed and into a home, court documents say

According to court documents, the bullet traveled through the shed and into the northeast portion of the house -- the location of the bathroom -- into the standup shower.

www.mitchellrepublic.com

 

[Nutterbuster]

The third is we ignore reccomendations and safety protocol prescribed by manufacturers of products we use...cause we know better, and we're not using them for what they designed them for anyway...so how do they know best?

Is that the third? I thought third was we don't talk about the upside of downplaying, refuting, naysaying, and denying the idea that older and bigger people are going to be more at risk for injury engaging in athletic activity, compared to younger and smaller cohorts.

 

[Plebe]

Also, no one who has taken exception to what I’m saying has answered my very straightforward questions:

What’s the downside of pointing out a rather robust notion that older and bigger people are going to be more at risk for injury engaging in athletic activity(specifically climbing trees), and are at greater risks of those injuries being severe, when compared with younger smaller cohorts?

What’s the upside of downplaying, refuting, naysaying, denying these rather benign ideas?

I guess where I take exception is you haven't (to my knowledge) validated to a fact that old fat people are more at risk. It is perhaps true, I haven't done any homework there. At a glance it seems accidents and injuries are across the board.

 

[Nutterbuster]

I guess where I take exception is you haven't (to my knowledge) validated to a fact that old fat people are more at risk. It is perhaps true, I haven't done any homework there. At a glance it seems accidents and injuries are across the board.

About falls risk factors - Stay On Your Feet | Queensland Health

This section defines risk factors and discusses why they are important in preventing falls.

www.health.qld.gov.au

Not hunting falls, but I can't imagine the following risk-factors wouldn't correlate:

The fear of falling

limitations in mobility

impaired balance

visual impairment

reduced muscle strength

poor reaction times

use of multiple medications specifically benzodiazepines, antidepressants, anti-psychotics and psychoactive medications

Most of them seem (to me) head-slappingly obvious factors that come into play more and more as you get older/fatter. Except for the first and last ones.

Most people seem to intuit that older, wiser hunters who are wary of a fall are more careful. But I can entertain an opposing view that posits increased fear of falling (because you know it's gonna suck more now than it would have earlier in life) would take you out of the here-and-now and mess you up. Stress erodes performance in physical activities requiring dexterity and balance more than it increases them is my understanding.

I hadn't thought about meds. Obesity has clearly studied linkages to decreased mental health, and until just now I hadn't thought about how that plays out 30ft up. No clue about other medications older folks may be on and how they affect climbing ability.

I'd say there's strong reason to believe that older/heavier folks are more at risk of falling than younger/leaner ones, and even stronger reason to believe that the consequences of a fall are definitely worse.

 

[Vtbow]

Ok..
So there are a lotnof different thoughts here, which is great. And even better everyone is being civil which I know I appreciate.

Here's some food for thought: it's a proven medical fact that as you get older, your stamina decreases, your muscles and joints become more lax, metabolism goes down, reflexes are slower and in many cases hereditary diseases and health issues start to arise.

All those things can and do effect physical activity. Sure regular training can curve many of those changes, but not all. Such is life.

I quit whitewater kayaking. I used to be serious, like class IV, V ****.... I guided, was trained in rescue, all that jazz....several years ago after not paddling seriously for one season I met a buddy to paddle a river I had paddled maybe a hundred times..home turf kind of thing. Mostly class III, an easy IV section. I was scared shirtless. My auto reactions and muscle memory was slow. My ability to read the river was rusty. I had paddled this river solo in double flood stages, and I remember this circumstance I was looking for eddys left and right because I was overwhelmed and it wasn't even prime level.

My point is hunting season is maybe 2 months for most of us. Is everyone training in th3 off season? Especially those of us who are older and are losing any physical edge We may have had annually???

I sold my boat about a month later. That was a situation I wasn't going to put myself in again. I was lucky, but i recognizsd the changes in my lifestyle and age made an impact...and learned...and moved on. I still paddle whitewater, in a canoe now..but limit myself to class III where the consequences of my skill degradation and less time on the water aren't so severe ...

 

[Plebe]

About falls risk factors - Stay On Your Feet | Queensland Health

This section defines risk factors and discusses why they are important in preventing falls.

www.health.qld.gov.au

I'd say there's strong reason to believe that older/heavier folks are more at risk of falling than younger/leaner ones, and even stronger reason to believe that the consequences of a fall are definitely worse.

 

[Nutterbuster]

So, if you take the 10 cases listed above by Plebe and the 5 years of data I posted elsewhere on Alabama DCNR reported fall incidents (62 incidents total) you get this:



It's a very small sample, but it definitely doesn't suggest less falling amongst older hunters. It's not a huge increase, and we can argue about why it exists, but in Alabama the reporting increased as age did.

If we look at FATAL falls, we have the following ages: 51, 65, 69, 45, 33, 65, 57, 58. So out of 8 lethal deaths, 7 were old enough we can pretty reasonably assume they were facing declining physical abilities.

It's not a lot of data, but I'm not making an outrageous claim (not sure why I'm in any way shouldering burden of proof for it), tbh. Age and the physical decline it brings work against you when it comes to climbing safety.

 

[Hank175]

Any time you elevate the body above the ground, the risk of injury increases. As your age and weight increase, the seriousness of injury increases.

These aren't things anybody can or should argue with. As with any activity, it behooves us to identify and mitigate the risks.

I've gotten older and had kids, and as a result I've taken to saddle hunting because it is safer way for me to climb trees. I also happen to find ground hunting much more difficult, exciting, rewarding, etc. Climbing is now simply a tool in my toolbox, and I can hunt with my saddle and single stick on my back. I would never have taken my summit with the intention of stalking deer with it on my back. When I do climb, I know the risks, and I check my gear and take my time because I want to minimize the chance that my boys won't get to see daddy again because of carelessness and negligence.