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Thoughts on most recent poll results, deer hunting success, tree climbing risk
- Thread starter kyler1945
- Start date
TommyDee
Well-Known Member
Data? It’s based on perception of safety for hikers/non hunters, but I’m fine with that, if it allows us to access more populated areas we couldn’t otherwise hunt. Data doesn’t help with these matters, if there is one incident where an arrow hits a hiker in NJ, they’ll shut us down. Hell, our governor is already growing a mob of bears that one day may turn on us!
If you really want to help some people out go over to the Facebook Saddle Groups and when you see someone asking a question about techniques send them to SH where they much more likely to get an informed answer. You will also have to teach them about searching for a topic which is foreign in that world. Every once in a while I peek into that wretched hive of scum and villainy know as Facebook and those Saddle Hunting Groups are a ship adrift........you could really help some people there. When I do go there I am constantly telling people to go to SH for more informed answers.
Cheers
LAKY
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I agree that as one gets older or fatter, that physical dexterity begins to decrease and the body in general starts to degrade. I also believe we should ALL make an effort to educate ourselves on and practice safe climbing procedures. What I don't agree with is @kyler1945 's opinion as stated in the opening post that at the age of 50 it's ground time. Maybe for him, but each person should decide that on their on. I contend that there are still safe ways to climb past that age. Is your body not as agile and more prone to breaking past a certain age, yes. Just because you reach a certain age, doesn't mean you're destined to ground hunt. Education on safe ways to do that should be focused on instead of saying, just don't do it. Bringing attention to dangers and safe practices is fine and welcome.
And, when using data to back up assumptions about ages, you need to look at what portion that age group is of the whole. Hunter ages in general are older, so it would make sense that those would make up a larger percentage.
And, when using data to back up assumptions about ages, you need to look at what portion that age group is of the whole. Hunter ages in general are older, so it would make sense that those would make up a larger percentage.
rambotogo
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My take on this thread .If you are fat don't. hunt from a tree.if you are 35 or older don't hunt from a tree . Studies that the adult male brain does not develop fully until after 30 years of age . I guess we need to keep this group on the ground also . It is a risk I am willing to take ,but if I fall and break my ass its my ass . Don't be a wussy , know the risks climb as safe as you can or stay on the ground ,your choice . good luck
See post 85 in regards to the notion I’ve said anything to the effect of making or compelling someone else to do anything.
Your last sentence is a big part of the point I’m trying to make. You see the fact that it’s mostly older and bigger people climbing trees for hunting, so naturally they’ll skew the statistics. And you accept that as just IS. Most people share your perception, that there’s nothing to see there. And maybe there isn’t.
But I don’t share that view. And for some reason I am incapable of explaining, me noticing this situation is somehow insulting and draws negative responses.
Again, what I’m seeing is a major flaw in two main perceptions:
1 - that climbing trees as often as we do to kill deer is as integral to success across all hunters as we perceive it to be.
2 - that climbing trees to kill deer is as safe for all people, but especially untrained, unskilled, out of shape, older, and larger hunters, as we perceive it to be.
For the hundredth time. I KNOW there are larger and older people who can write the book on climbing and risk mitigation and deer killing. My hat is off to them.
For the other 99.9% of people climbing trees, I can’t see a downside to pointing some of these things out, besides the now obvious hurt feelings.
I can’t make the point any other way. Nor is there any value to doing so anymore.
Thanks for the input from everyone, especially those people who might be in the groups being discussed, who were able to give good perspective.
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LAKY
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If your point is to be safe, know your limitations, and you don't have to climb to kill deer, I agree 100%. I don't mean to offend. I was just pointing out how I perceived what you were saying. My take away was 50 = don't climb.
@Nutterbuster Appreciate you making the effort to gather age data relative to fall data. I will say that the data you found is entirely different than that of the falls that I am directly aware of. That said only one of the falls I know of was reported because they were either uninjured or not enough to seek medical care. One did have to go to the hospital though.
@kyler1945 so who gets nominated to build out threads for best practices and risk of elevated hunting including age and weight related risk?
@kyler1945 so who gets nominated to build out threads for best practices and risk of elevated hunting including age and weight related risk?
I don’t think I’m going to be the guy.
Climbing just isn’t that important to me given all we’ve discussed so far. I would prefer to leave that up to two groups of people: those with extensive training and experience in climbing/rope/rigging/rescue fields, and those people who are obsessed with climbing trees to kill deer. That confluence will be best to lead the charge. I am also acutely aware that my bedside manner leaves much to be desired.
Well I for dang sure aint that guy either LOL. Was just curious if you had a few folks in mind to spearhead such a project if you will. There is certainly merit in it. Meanwhile I will be jamming out on some Sammy Hagar, I plan to climb at 55
Your bedside manner is fine. As far as I can tell there's no children on this forum. We can take some honest criticism without getting our panties in a bunch. I for one have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation and the stats shown here. If it gets even one hunter to think more about safety in general that's a good thing. I myself view the risk for me as being minimal since I have been climbing trees for 40+ years and am super careful and focused during my climbs and descents having fell before.
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Well I for dang sure aint that guy either LOL. Was just curious if you had a few folks in mind to spearhead such a project if you will. There is certainly merit in it. Meanwhile I will be jamming out on some Sammy Hagar, I plan to climb at 55
it isn’t rocket science:
Age and weight not a significant factor compared to lack of harness attachment to tree. (Or life line)
the conversation needs to start there. Then we can talk about all the ways to get hurt with a harness
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Vtbow
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I am going to try this from a little different angle:
-Approximately 10 people are actively involved in this discussion
-Those 10 people, regardless of age have somewhat extensive experience with climbing a tree and hunting in general
-Those 10 people may or may not be over the age of 50
-Those 10 people may or may not be obese
-Those 10 people have taken the time to have this discussion, which means they have made conscious decisions around this topic based on said experience and that has impacted how they climb/hunt and mitigate their own risk
Ok, there are 19,400 members on this forum.
0.05% of the forum members are active in this conversation.
I don't like to do it, and it is a little against the whole statistical analysis we are discussion, but lets make a general assumption: More that 0.05% of the people on the forum reflect the description I gave above of the 10 people involved in the conversation. In fact lets be generous, Lets say 10% of that 19,400 fall into that group.
That's 1,940 people that may fall into that above group...just on this site.
That leaves 17,460 who probably don't fit into the group above. That is by far the majority. Based on some of the statistics we have looked at on just general hunting population, you can assume there is a large intersect in that group of people that are both over the age of 50, and obese. I"m not saying anyone in that intersect group shouldn't be climbing, but I will say they need to actively be assessing the risk vs. benefit of climbing and if they choose to climb HOW THEY ARE CLIMBING. I don't think this group of people are doing this. They get sewing machine leg as they're climbing up their aider or bolts, and their forearms are totally pumped when they get completely setup. They just live with it; its worth it, everyone on youtube is doing it. And they climb a tree using this method say 30 times a year?(I don't know how many sits people get in). Then the season ends and they move on to another activity which has zero physical parallels to climbing a tree. The next year they do the same thing, but they're one year older. They may have dislocated their shoulder throwing hay, been stabbed in the foot by a pitchfork, or even torn a pulley in their finger significantly decreasing their hand strength(These are all real things that have happened to me). Are they still forcing themselves to climb aiders or one sticking because they feel like their is that much more of an advantage to it to KILL DEER?
That is what I think the heart of this conversation is. Its not the people partaking in this conversation that should be asking themselves all the questions and reflecting on the comments and ideas that @kyler1945 has brought up. All of you regardless of age or body type/weight have already asked those questions and determined what works for them. Its everyone else who hasn't. And how the industry and media frames climbing and hunting elevated does impact the majority of the hunting population and their methods used--but ignores many of the valid and true points brought up in this thread.
-Approximately 10 people are actively involved in this discussion
-Those 10 people, regardless of age have somewhat extensive experience with climbing a tree and hunting in general
-Those 10 people may or may not be over the age of 50
-Those 10 people may or may not be obese
-Those 10 people have taken the time to have this discussion, which means they have made conscious decisions around this topic based on said experience and that has impacted how they climb/hunt and mitigate their own risk
Ok, there are 19,400 members on this forum.
0.05% of the forum members are active in this conversation.
I don't like to do it, and it is a little against the whole statistical analysis we are discussion, but lets make a general assumption: More that 0.05% of the people on the forum reflect the description I gave above of the 10 people involved in the conversation. In fact lets be generous, Lets say 10% of that 19,400 fall into that group.
That's 1,940 people that may fall into that above group...just on this site.
That leaves 17,460 who probably don't fit into the group above. That is by far the majority. Based on some of the statistics we have looked at on just general hunting population, you can assume there is a large intersect in that group of people that are both over the age of 50, and obese. I"m not saying anyone in that intersect group shouldn't be climbing, but I will say they need to actively be assessing the risk vs. benefit of climbing and if they choose to climb HOW THEY ARE CLIMBING. I don't think this group of people are doing this. They get sewing machine leg as they're climbing up their aider or bolts, and their forearms are totally pumped when they get completely setup. They just live with it; its worth it, everyone on youtube is doing it. And they climb a tree using this method say 30 times a year?(I don't know how many sits people get in). Then the season ends and they move on to another activity which has zero physical parallels to climbing a tree. The next year they do the same thing, but they're one year older. They may have dislocated their shoulder throwing hay, been stabbed in the foot by a pitchfork, or even torn a pulley in their finger significantly decreasing their hand strength(These are all real things that have happened to me). Are they still forcing themselves to climb aiders or one sticking because they feel like their is that much more of an advantage to it to KILL DEER?
That is what I think the heart of this conversation is. Its not the people partaking in this conversation that should be asking themselves all the questions and reflecting on the comments and ideas that @kyler1945 has brought up. All of you regardless of age or body type/weight have already asked those questions and determined what works for them. Its everyone else who hasn't. And how the industry and media frames climbing and hunting elevated does impact the majority of the hunting population and their methods used--but ignores many of the valid and true points brought up in this thread.
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Sure. But that wasn't the information you asked for. You asked if it was really true to age and weight increase frequency and severity of injury.
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First off, these incidents are more nuanced than the data shows. But there is value to macro analysis and the obvious observation here is that proper use of a fall prevention device is the common denominator. There isn't really a data set for injuries and deaths to parties who fell while properly employing fall protection.
That said, the data you compiled lacks essential context for your conclusion considering the aforementioned commonality.
What percentage of people in each age group wore a harness? Is it equal across the board? Are youths in states now requiring hunter safety courses more inclined to wear a safety harness than older hunters who have spent many years afield without a harness? Is there a connection between the large number of ladder stand incidents and complacency due to the simplicity of the climbing method? Does this simple climbing method attract older fatter people, whereas hang on stands have been popularized amongst a younger fitter crowd? Are we to assume based off statistics of the general population that the small number of older victims were obese in percentages greater than the younger victims? so on and so forth.
I'll be as honest as I can and as polite as I can.
I don't understand why you're pushing this hard against what shouldn't be a hot take. Nobody is going to argue that harnesses save lives.
You're using smart-sounding sentences and then asking lots of questions that i dont think are doing anything but muddying the waters. I think there's a real risk that somebody who needs to read this thread and make a course correction could use what I think are bad-faith quibbles to justify doing nothing.
I love a good ole BS internet argument as much or more as anybody. But we're not arguing over whether New York or Wisconsin has more P&Y deer here.
I'm acting in good-faith, taking time out of my day to pull the data available and put it up there for people in an easy-to-digest way. I'm doing this because I spent a year or so talking daily to people who were old and out-of-shape who were getting ready to do things that I view as risky for me. I don't wanna derail the train. My friends built it and make money off of it. But other friends ride on it and I want to pump the breaks before somebody gets hurt and the ride gets shut down.
If you are genuinely trying to understand the situation, I want to help. If you just want to argue, I'll go bump the P&Y spreadsheet forum and we can do that thing in a place where stakes are lower.
LAKY
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So, let's get specific. @kyler1945 and @Nutterbuster , what age do you think people shouldn't climb by any method. And, what metric for fatness do you think people shouldn't climb by any method? Not being contrarian; genuinely want to know what your opinions are on this and where you'll draw the line for yourselves.
hokiehunter373
Well-Known Member
Not to speak for them but it seems like both of them think there isn't a set number for either of those. They're just saying everyone, especially those that are in the older and more obese demographics, should consider if it's worth it to climb a tree to hunt, considering the possible increased risk in doing so.
Honestly, I think it'd be better for everyone on here if we all just agreed that everyone would be better off considering the risks. Not just those that could be at a higher risk. Lots of people don't consider it at all. They just climb trees to hunt because they've always done it that way, but it wouldn't hurt anyone to actively think about it, even if you still continue to climb. That's what I'll do.
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I thought you were into a slow, deliberate, emotionless, open conversation.
I'm not steering a story, I'm analyzing the data. It's more than just a handful of beans.
You want to lean on age and obesity go right ahead.
I'd rather talk about safety and prevention.
Cause, what I'm seeing is that everyone is vulnerable at height and a lot of what's happened is preventable.
And pigeonholing it as an old fat person problem imo neglects a big group and suggests they've reduced risk.
You know, the young, untrained, invincible crowd that now run through the woods with their razor sharp broadheads nocked chasing deer like Zach.
Climbing methodologies available to the average joe have become more technical and we haven't scratched the surface on what that's going to do for incidents in the future.
There is a lot that can go wrong that isn't going to be overcome with strength and agility.
You want to talk data, it's there on the macro level: Almost 100% of all incidents (young, old, fat, thin) failed to properly use fall prevention equipment/techniques.
I'm wanting to extrapolate that to those at risk, which is everyone. period.
That's the thing I think is causing friction. I'm not saying there's a hard number. I'm not saying anybody should or shouldn't climb.
All I'm trying to do is encourage people to think clearly about the risk/reward. Especially if they're hunting a lot (like me), overweight (like me), or getting older (like me).
I'm personally concerned about certain climbing methods, and the general poor quality of a lot of information and understanding of information. Especially when so many saddle hunters are already playing with the deck stacked against them physically.
I'm not telling folks what to do. Aside from think first and be realistic about the risk/reward.