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What is current "state of the art" rappel gear for SH?

Fl Canopy Stalker said:
I tried quite a few options including an ATC, a figure 8 (which I keep as an emergency back up in my back pack), a Madrock safeguard, and a Petzl Gri Gri plus. I’ve used 10mm HTP, 8mm oplux (packs great but that’s about the only advantage to oplux in my opinion) and 9mm pro tac.

I settled on 9mm protac because it handles better than oplux or HTP, it’s stronger than either and it packs down pretty good. And I prefer the Petzl gri gri plus. It’s a little bigger and heavier than the Madrock but there is no comparison between the two when it comes to smoothness of operation. As stated in the Madhunts video attached on page 4, I use a 7mm hitch above my device as a safe way to go completely hands free. A little paracord and a small key chain style carabiner from Home Depot and it’s super easy to tend the hitch while rappelling. Just my two cents. Definitely curious to hear what you end up with and if you enjoy it
Click to expand...
I'm sure you've seen this, but just in case

 
TreeRecon said:
I'm a rope access tech and own a small arb company. I take a more cautious approach than others. I would never use a Madrock for saddle hunting. I would however use a GriGri/GriGri+ at height (not for onesticking), because they can be "locked off."

My go to is the Elderid Megawatt. Auto locking, hands free device. Can work from 8.9mm-11.7mm ropeView attachment 92489
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Looks like slightly heavier alternative to Petzl ID.

Why would you be ok with Grigri but not Madrock?

In principle there’s no difference in how Safeguard works vs Megawatt or Petzl RIG/ID
 
phatkaw said:
Wow. I don't remember getting an alert saying you 'quoted me'. Sorry.

That is 8mm Ultra-Tech & a Bull Hitch!
My most favoritist rope...
Click to expand...

4e5b525e2c1b187229c6b0910cf523b4.png

020d24e7f0d67323dad4f313b1110239.png

Samson lists the 3/8 green & red as 9mm

The 8mm is blue & red


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TreeRecon said:
I'm sure you've seen this, but just in case

Click to expand...
Yea I’ve seen it. There is also a warning at the bottom that says too much force applied to the brake line side can cause the cam to over rotate and release. If we had a dynamic event, a tie off or knot is likely to bind really badly. I can get the Cornell hitch above the device to break after heavy loading. It would also stop me from over rotating and allowing the cam to release.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Um the RIG/ ID are auto braking, the safeguard is assisted braking. They are pretty different in those regards
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Well I asked why Grigri but not Safeguard. Both are assisted though the one is not auto-locking only due to liability clause while the other can actually drop you.

The basic function of Safeguard and ID/Megawatt is the same, cam that grabs the rope. Actual difference is in that ID/Megawatt cam is shrouded deeper to prevent obstruction in normal use. The more important difference and reason why Madrock does not tell you it's auto-locking is because Safeguard is exclusively bought by yahoos who intend to abuse it and are not professionals or at least do not adhere to standardised practices in use.

Using ID/Megawatt over Safeguard won't make you any safer while hunting. Tying off brake strand of Grigri is not one tiny bit safer than Safeguard. In fact if you tie off the Grigri, it's one of the weakest belay devices on the market, the cam blows off below 10kN.

And finally let's look at Petzl documentation demonstrating appropriate use of I'D. If you're working on ID or similar device, you're expected to be backed up by separate redundant, shock absorber equipped fall arrest system. I have yet to see anyone use one in context of saddlehunting. While wearing appropriate harness for PPE use obviously.
1697185039487.png
 
I skimmed the responses. I didn't see consideration of the other case when we rappel: An emergency rappel which occurs after the failure of something we are standing on. We all should be capable of rappel starting with nothing under our feet.

My system:

1. Anchor could be either a JRB Hitch, Maverick Hitch or JRB Cinch, or anything secure and retrievable.

2. Primary friction device is a Longhorn Agile or JRB Ascender hitch or anything which is reliably broken under load. NOT a ropeman or a prusik or Distel.

3. Friction for rappel is provided by a carabiner which is locked on my short bridge.

Normal rappel:


Emergency situation:


JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
samu said:
Well I asked why Grigri but not Safeguard. Both are assisted though the one is not auto-locking only due to liability clause while the other can actually drop you.

The basic function of Safeguard and ID/Megawatt is the same, cam that grabs the rope. Actual difference is in that ID/Megawatt cam is shrouded deeper to prevent obstruction in normal use. The more important difference and reason why Madrock does not tell you it's auto-locking is because Safeguard is exclusively bought by yahoos who intend to abuse it and are not professionals or at least do not adhere to standardised practices in use.

Using ID/Megawatt over Safeguard won't make you any safer while hunting. Tying off brake strand of Grigri is not one tiny bit safer than Safeguard. In fact if you tie off the Grigri, it's one of the weakest belay devices on the market, the cam blows off below 10kN.

And finally let's look at Petzl documentation demonstrating appropriate use of I'D. If you're working on ID or similar device, you're expected to be backed up by separate redundant, shock absorber equipped fall arrest system. I have yet to see anyone use one in context of saddlehunting. While wearing appropriate harness for PPE use obviously.
View attachment 92600
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ID and Megawatt are subjected to more (strenuous) tests due to the wider certifications they hold (natural, due to the industry). They are safer devices.

The GriGri can be locked off, Madrock cannot.

The image depicting a backup (from Petzl) on the ID is not due to the ID potentially failing, it's to follow rope access basic practices (SPRAT/IRATA) where you're always on two connections. And the redundancy was never intended to address mechanical failure. IRATA mandated it back in the 80s because people were sabotaging rope access tech's lines during work (in Scotland)

I have used an ASAP as a backup on some sketchy trees before. I guess I'm the exception
 
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TreeRecon said:
ID and Megawatt are subjected to more (strenuous) tests due to the wider certifications they hold (natural, due to the industry). They are safer devices.

The GriGri can be locked off, Madrock cannot.

The image depicting a backup (from Petzl) on the ID is not due to the ID potentially failing, it's to follow rope access basic practices (SPRAT/IRATA) where you're always on two connections. And the redundancy was never intended to address mechanical failure. IRATA mandated it back in the 80s because people were sabotaging rope access tech's lines during work (in Scotland)

I have used an ASAP as a backup on some sketchy trees before. I guess I'm the exception
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Thank you for explaining this so that I didn’t have too. It is lost on many that when used for professional use, that most governing agencies require additional safety back ups which no one can enforce upon recreational users
 
I'm a complete rookie at ropes. Never thought I would climb or rappel on ropes. It's always been "bolts up" and "bolts down".
But I bought that Sladder so I was required to learn rappel.
I bought a kit from EWO and in the meanwhile I was watching JRB vids.
Had fun practicing today. I think this is my new go-to.
 
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Fairly important detail I managed to squeeze out from Madrock. My question was "When you say ”break the entire system” does that include a risk of Safeguard cutting the rope?"

Hey Samu,

When we say break the system, we mean that by jamming the camming mechanism- the system itself is deemed compromised, hence the word "break". Apologies for the confusion. It would take much force for the safeguard to cut the rope as well as the device itself to break. In theory, your rope and/or harness would fail before the device can snap or break. We currently have not run a test that would answer your question below:

"Do you know how much force it takes to break the Safeguard with a stopper knot jammed against the cam?"


Thanks,

Mad Rock Retail Team
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John RB said:
I skimmed the responses. I didn't see consideration of the other case when we rappel: An emergency rappel which occurs after the failure of something we are standing on. We all should be capable of rappel starting with nothing under our feet.

My system:

1. Anchor could be either a JRB Hitch, Maverick Hitch or JRB Cinch, or anything secure and retrievable.

2. Primary friction device is a Longhorn Agile or JRB Ascender hitch or anything which is reliably broken under load. NOT a ropeman or a prusik or Distel.

3. Friction for rappel is provided by a carabiner which is locked on my short bridge.

Normal rappel:


Emergency situation:


JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
Click to expand...
I've used JRBs system 90% of the time the last couple seasons. I went back to the madrock safeguard recently, only to prefer the all mighty Munter hitch and JRB Ascender/Longhorn Agile, just feel safer AND so much smoother.

 
I've made 4 rappels now on the Madrock. It's working and I feel safe. Rope management at the bottom of the tree needs some work however.

Thank you for all the good info.
 
Kevin2 said:
I've used JRBs system 90% of the time the last couple seasons. I went back to the madrock safeguard recently, only to prefer the all mighty Munter hitch and JRB Ascender/Longhorn Agile, just feel safer AND so much smoother.

Click to expand...
I can afford and would definitely buy any device if it actually benefits me. I have a pile of rappel devices purchased to test em. I could probably make money if I endorsed em. But I am not here to make money. I am here to climb trees and the best way I am aware of to come out of a tree is what ya see here. It's foolproof.

JrbTreeClimbing.com, affiliated with RockNArbor.com
 
John RB said:
We all should be capable of rappel starting with nothing under our feet.
Click to expand...

This is a great point.

When I rope climb I use a foot loop on a prussic for ascending. I keep the loop on my climbing line once I’ve tethered in. I coil up my rope and fix the bundle to the tree within my reach. For descending I put my foot in the loop and run both my Blake’s and prussic with one hand. This gives me something stable to stand on while removing my platform / ROS. Once I’ve done that I generally take my foot out of the loop to rappel, but I keep the loop on my climbing line. The prussic on my foot loop serves as an emergency brake. If there’s anything precarious about the situation I can use the foot loop as a way of slowly working my way down the rope. And should anything ever happen that leaves me suspended by the rope, the foot loop is always there to give me something to stand up in while I regain control.

We should all practice and be prepared for self rescue. Anyone using ropes should know how to footlock.
 
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This thread has got me wanting to re-think my whole system. Especially JRBs comment on being able to self rescue without something under my feet, since I one stick.

I currently climb with and hang from my madrock, but once at hunting height I back it up with either a cornell above the madrock, then clipped into a redundant amsteel bridge, or I will wrap my linesmans around the tree and use it as a second tether, and clip into my redundant bridge that way via a prusik or distel. I leave just the slightest bit of slack in the redundant bridge so as not to interfere with my positioning on the tree.

Now I'm wondering about hanging from the madrock at all with all these comments about the madrock failing. Plus I keep seeing this comment brought up about a guy demonstrating how to one stick at some sort of saddle demo, and his madrock giving way and dropping him 10 feet out of the tree. Just makes me squeamish.

How can I improve on this to be as safe as possible, especially while moving up before I have my madrock backed up?

BT
 
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Black Titan said:
This thread has got me wanting to re-think my whole system. Especially JRBs comment on being able to self rescue without something under my feet, since I one stick.

I currently climb with and hang from my madrock, but once at hunting height I back it up with either a Cantrell above the madrock, then clipped into a redundant amsteel bridge, or I will wrap my linesmans around the tree and use it as a second tether, and clip into my redundant bridge that way via a prusik or distel. I leave just the slightest bit of slack in the redundant bridge so as not to interfere with my positioning on the tree.

Now I'm wondering about hanging from the madrock at all with all these comments about the madrock failing. Plus I keep seeing this comment brought up about a guy demonstrating how to one stick at some sort of saddle demo, and his madrock giving way and dropping him 10 feet out of the tree. Just makes me squeamish.

How can I improve on this to be as safe as possible, especially while moving up before I have my madrock backed up?

BT
Click to expand...
Read my comment above carefully about what Madrock replied about backing up Safeguard. Having a knot on the brake strand will not lead to risk of a ground fall. Madrock considers the situation where your weight is held by the knot jammed against the device instead of cam pinching the rope as "failed system". The device won't break and let you fall to ground because you tied a knot on the rope. I still wouldn't use prusik on a brake strand as you could then theoretically create a situation where the knot prevents the Safeguard functioning properly while the safeguard is tending your prusik.

How do you tie off? Take the rope you need to go around the tree. Reach the loop as high as you can push it and pull the slack through the safeguard. Leave maybe a foot of extra to deal with and tie an overhand bight or alpine butterfly on the brake strand. If you want to be extra safe, clip that bight on your linemans loop with a carabiner. Now it's phyiscally impossible for you to fall further than that distance unless the rope is cut. To be extra safe, when you climb, if you can't move the tether up, pull any slack through the Safeguard. When you get on the steps, get yourself protected by other means while you pull slack back into your tether and push the loop up the tree.

To prevent the cam obstruction by external object like climbing stick, branches, loose clothing etc, keep the safeguard close to your body. Shorten bridge or use a secondary bridge for the climb.

I don't recommend tying anything above the safeguard, if you need to lower yourself, you'd need to operate the handle and tend the prusik with one hand because under no circumstance you should operate the lever of the safeguard without holding firmly on the brake strand.

If you still feel uncomfortable about tying off the brake strand with safeguard, buy the Edelrid Megawatt. It has the cam better protected for obstruction and you can still tie off the brake strand just in case.

Edit: removed stuff I'm not too sure about.
 
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