Another one-sticking safety thread (sigh)

[Beeyuu]

Same here.

same

 

[goody94]

I have been wondering this to but I think I’m going to lean with there are not going to be more injuries. The truth is that people care about their lives and when they feel nervous or scared they take it easy.

I think it’s easy to start thinking ‘worst case scenarios’, but the chances of a dude having a straight 4 foot fall seems unlikely to me.

Could it happen? Absolutely.

But a number of bad things could have happened to me as well while I used a climber for the past 10 years without being attached to the tree going up and coming down... (I’m much safer now that I saddle hunt because I actually do research and not just ‘what I’ve always done’)

My premise is that guys care about their lives...they will be cautious if they feel uneasy.. therefore the likelihood of someone getting seriously hurt seems less likely than what ‘my rationale’ may lead me to think.

Lol ok done rambling...my 2 cents

 

[goody94]

I have been wondering this to but I think I’m going to lean with there are not going to be more injuries. The truth is that people care about their lives and when they feel nervous or scared they take it easy.

I think it’s easy to start thinking ‘worst case scenarios’, but the chances of a dude having a straight 4 foot fall seems unlikely to me.

Could it happen? Absolutely.

But a number of bad things could have happened to me as well while I used a climber for the past 10 years without being attached to the tree going up and coming down... (I’m much safer now that I saddle hunt because I actually do research and not just ‘what I’ve always done’)

My premise is that guys care about their lives...they will be cautious if they feel uneasy.. therefore the likelihood of someone getting seriously hurt seems less likely than what ‘my rationale’ may lead me to think.

Lol ok done rambling...my 2 cents

This is not to condone one sticking as a ‘safe’ climbing method. I think there are a number of safety concerns and much safer ways to climb. I just don’t think there will be many injuries.

 

[_Dario]

I feel similarly I think…they are securely attaching their one-stick to the tree using a cam strap that has been used forever and is very secure, they are..

What’s that? What are they using? They are using marine supply store cam cleats rated at 300lbs?

ok..

My point is…I don’t know anymore…

 

[BTaylor]

This is not to condone one sticking as a ‘safe’ climbing method. I think there are a number of safety concerns and much safer ways to climb. I just don’t think there will be many injuries.

No matter what climbing method is being used with a saddle, there is a requirement to be attached to the tree. That is a huge step in the right direction if we are talking about elevated hunting in it's entirety. The overwhelming majority of folks I know using either a climber, lock-on or ladder, never use any type of safety gear. I know folks that have fallen while using all three of those stand types and none were wearing safety gear.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I have been wondering this to but I think I’m going to lean with there are not going to be more injuries. The truth is that people care about their lives and when they feel nervous or scared they take it easy.

I think it’s easy to start thinking ‘worst case scenarios’, but the chances of a dude having a straight 4 foot fall seems unlikely to me.

Could it happen? Absolutely.

But a number of bad things could have happened to me as well while I used a climber for the past 10 years without being attached to the tree going up and coming down... (I’m much safer now that I saddle hunt because I actually do research and not just ‘what I’ve always done’)

My premise is that guys care about their lives...they will be cautious if they feel uneasy.. therefore the likelihood of someone getting seriously hurt seems less likely than what ‘my rationale’ may lead me to think.

Lol ok done rambling...my 2 cents

Complacency breeds failure….
So if someone is nervous and aware, they are more likely to pay attention to do it correctly. I agree, but what about when we get comfortable doing it so we start slowly cutting corners here and there to do it quicker or make it easier…?

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I have been wondering this to but I think I’m going to lean with there are not going to be more injuries. The truth is that people care about their lives and when they feel nervous or scared they take it easy.

I think it’s easy to start thinking ‘worst case scenarios’, but the chances of a dude having a straight 4 foot fall seems unlikely to me.

Could it happen? Absolutely.

But a number of bad things could have happened to me as well while I used a climber for the past 10 years without being attached to the tree going up and coming down... (I’m much safer now that I saddle hunt because I actually do research and not just ‘what I’ve always done’)

My premise is that guys care about their lives...they will be cautious if they feel uneasy.. therefore the likelihood of someone getting seriously hurt seems less likely than what ‘my rationale’ may lead me to think.

Lol ok done rambling...my 2 cents

One other Question… and I only ask because I like your thought process here…… Do you think a 4’ fall is what is required to generate enough force to injure or kill you?

 

[goody94]

One other Question… and I only ask because I like your thought process here…… Do you think a 4’ fall is what is required to generate enough force to injure or kill you?

No. Because it’s not going to be a fall like a test scenario.. Nobody falls ‘staticly’... if I’m going down, it’s going to be ‘dynamically’

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

No. Because it’s not going to be a fall like a test scenario.. Nobody falls ‘staticly’... if I’m going down, it’s going to be ‘dynamically’

Like I said… I like the way you think

 

[enkriss]

I am trying to gauge if we are standing on the precipice of a real dumpster fire of a year or if I am inflating the dangers/numbers

I have a strong feeling there are injuries coming. But not from one sticking as a technique. As is could be done safely with no more risk that other techniques. The disaster is going to be sketchy DIY equipment failing and people cutting corners to get up the tree quicker by failing to use a linemans belt or whatever.

 

[goody94]

One other Question… and I only ask because I like your thought process here…… Do you think a 4’ fall is what is required to generate enough force to injure or kill you?

Had this thought though.. if my chances of injury were .5% climbing with sticks, and now they are 1% with one sticking... is it still worth it? This doubles my chance of injury but is still relatively safe. At what point does it stop being worth it?

 

[phatkaw]

I'm 47 and have been climbing trees since I was a kid.
I started bow hunting when I was 15 and never in my life did I tie off to the tree while hunting until I started this saddle stuff a few months ago...

I'd say one-sticking is a lot safer than inch worming up a tree and hanging a stand while squeezing the tree with your toes!

 

[enkriss]

One other Question… and I only ask because I like your thought process here…… Do you think a 4’ fall is what is required to generate enough force to injure or kill you?

If a 4’ fall is enough to break my back like that video that was posted suggests if connected at the hips like a saddle I would rather just hit the ground.

 

[_Dario]

Well I know you were making up numbers just to make a point but I think the chance of injury is much greater than .05% moving to one-sticking. And if it were actually 1%…eek. How many seasons would it take to make 99 climbs? 1 season..2 or 3?

 

[kyler1945]

I think aiders will be more directly responsible, as in root cause of injury, than climbing method(one stick climbing versus any other) or slack in a tether(again, a downstream impact of other procedures/equipment failing).

I think folks undervalue risk analysis. Not safety. Not ratings. Not equipment and methods. But actually understanding risk from a statistical point of view. Being able to pick apart the big picture carefully, does not require one to be super smart. It just requires the right framing, and a few beers, and some honest actors to bounce stuff off of (yourself being the most important one).

I think folks undervalue injuries that don't show up in our mental stat sheets (broken backs, legs, or death). Torn MCL, sprained ankle, broken wrist or finger, all kinds of minor injuries that occur because of the above issues, that really make life tougher down the road. The amount of suffering one will eventually endure, will likely not be worth whatever short term gain they got out of picking one dumb way up a tree over a slightly less dumb way up a tree. This isn't saying don't climb trees. I don't do black and white. Its long and short positions. And people are short on small injuries.

Climbing one stick can be no different from climbing multiple sticks from a safety, time, and effort perspective. Or it can not. That depends on lots of things.

I don't think we'll hear about a significant amount of falls. Mostly because of pride and ego.

 

[TexaninSconny]

@Dario I think you are going to make a fine helicopter parent some day, haha.

You know I jest. Glad you are intent on helping to make this practice safer. This is my first season saddle hunting so I don't have much experience to speak from, but I feel like it's dangerous enough to make people give solid focus to it and make sure all their i's are dotted and their t's are crossed.

And I'd agree with Kyle...there are probably quite a bit of injuries that aren't disclosed due to pride and ego. Machismo tends to peak in the hunting crowd.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

Had this thought though.. if my chances of injury were .5% climbing with sticks, and now they are 1% with one sticking... is it still worth it? This doubles my chance of injury but is still relatively safe. At what point does it stop being worth it?

If a 4’ fall is enough to break my back like that video that was posted suggests if connected at the hips like a saddle I would rather just hit the ground.

fall factors play huge rolls in generated forces. A 4’ fall at a .5:1 factor won’t hurt nearly as badly as falling 4’ on 2’ of tether slack because you climbed way above your tether or linesman rope. One is way more “static” of a stop than the other. That’s why I told people in the last thread that I don’t do secondary tie ins because if I fell hard enough to make my bridge fail, I’d be as bad or worse off than if I went straight to the ground.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

I think aiders will be more directly responsible, as in root cause of injury, than climbing method(one stick climbing versus any other) or slack in a tether(again, a downstream impact of other procedures/equipment failing).

I think folks undervalue risk analysis. Not safety. Not ratings. Not equipment and methods. But actually understanding risk from a statistical point of view. Being able to pick apart the big picture carefully, does not require one to be super smart. It just requires the right framing, and a few beers, and some honest actors to bounce stuff off of (yourself being the most important one).

I think folks undervalue injuries that don't show up in our mental stat sheets (broken backs, legs, or death). Torn MCL, sprained ankle, broken wrist or finger, all kinds of minor injuries that occur because of the above issues, that really make life tougher down the road. The amount of suffering one will eventually endure, will likely not be worth whatever short term gain they got out of picking one dumb way up a tree over a slightly less dumb way up a tree. This isn't saying don't climb trees. I don't do black and white. Its long and short positions. And people are short on small injuries.

Climbing one stick can be no different from climbing multiple sticks from a safety, time, and effort perspective. Or it can not. That depends on lots of things.

I don't think we'll hear about a significant amount of falls. Mostly because of pride and ego.

Ding ding ding @kyler1945 for the win in my opinion. Yes even if you suffered minimal injuries the long term effects are cumulative. And for the record I agree 100% that aiders will be the most likely cause of injuries from sticks and especially one sticking. They make using linesman rope more challenging. They aren’t a firm surface to step onto. And the greatly contribute to someone’s inability to advance their tether while one sticking. We do that to increase our gain per stick. The question to me is: Is that gain worth it? You could take 2 extra minutes and continue to use the stick to get to the desired height. Anyway I’ve tried to sit out and thumbs up you creative thinkers and I love hearing the opinions about potential injuries and odds of it occurring as saddles and one sticking continue to gain popularity

 

[gcr0003]

Ding ding ding @kyler1945 for the win in my opinion. Yes even if you suffered minimal injuries the long term effects are cumulative. And for the record I agree 100% that aiders will be the most likely cause of injuries from sticks and especially one sticking. They make using linesman rope more challenging. They aren’t a firm surface to step onto. And the greatly contribute to someone’s inability to advance their tether while one sticking. We do that to increase our gain per stick. The question to me is: Is that gain worth it? You could take 2 extra minutes and continue to use the stick to get to the desired height. Anyway I’ve tried to sit out and thumbs up you creative thinkers and I love hearing the opinions about potential injuries and odds of it occurring as saddles and one sticking continue to gain popularity

I one stick with a lineman’s and have no trouble using it while on the aiders. I do agree that aiders are tricky and will contribute to a number of injuries whether reported or not. I found that when connected to a double step I have much more stability.

Also you couldn’t resist posting if your life depended on it! Haha

 

[_Dario]

@Dario I think you are going to make a fine helicopter parent some day, haha.

You know I jest. Glad you are intent on helping to make this practice safer. This is my first season saddle hunting so I don't have much experience to speak from, but I feel like it's dangerous enough to make people give solid focus to it and make sure all their i's are dotted and their t's are crossed.

And I'd agree with Kyle...there are probably quite a bit of injuries that aren't disclosed due to pride and ego. Machismo tends to peak in the hunting crowd.

Hahaha I probably am coming off that way on here but I am not a crazy lunatic that lives in a plastic bubble. I do partake in my fair share of risky adventures. I love riding my harley on the open road. I have also sustained a wild amount of chronic nagging injuries from doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu the better half of the past decade. I have cut corners doing this stuff, really out of ignorance. And I also firmly believe everyone can and should do whatever they want to (Murica).

I have just been posting about it here lately because I feel like I have been watching really egregious one sticking videos on YouTube and I knew there were a bunch of knowledgeable folks on here with the information I was looking for.