- Joined
- Feb 4, 2021
- Messages
- 4,972
They could be at your feet and you wouldn’t even know it lol
-
The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
-
We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules
Another one-sticking safety thread (sigh)
- Thread starter _Dario
- Start date
Wait. What the??? Alright @Nutterbuster, I'm out!
one-eyed-jack
New Member
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2019
- Messages
- 22
Rookie question: if you’re using your lineman’s belt when one sticking, how can it be more dangerous then using multiple sticks? It seems that linesman’s belt + tether > just lineman’s belt.
If there’s a reasonable method for getting in a tree that’s much safer, I’m going to rethink things.
If there’s a reasonable method for getting in a tree that’s much safer, I’m going to rethink things.
yup, you’re right about the first part! What is worrisome to me about one-sticking is doing it without a linesman belt. Even though you are tethered into the tree while one sticking, if you don’t use your linesman, the fall you could potentially take would generate enough force to break bones and rupture organs.
Okay, I thought of one more "one more thing" that applies regardless of the method you want to use to climb a tree. Honestly its probably the single most important thing you can do to keep yourself safe. That one thing is practice, practice and practice some more. And I'm not referring to just climbing the same old telephone pole sized, limbless, convenient tree in your yard. Practice climbing any of the types of trees you may reasonably expect to climb in real hunting situations. Practice on leaners, trees with limbs, and try to practice as much as you can under the conditions you'll hunt in. Enough practice and you'll learn what situations to avoid and what are doable when you're in an actual hunting situation.
You'll also be safer if you develop a consistent, simple and repeatable process. Practice enough and that process becomes automatic much like driving your vehicle or brushing your teeth. Think about that for a minute though. Have you ever rented a car that's a different make/model and simply hopped in and headed down the road only to discover that you can't find the headlight switch or the windshield wiper controls? In those moments of searching suddenly you're putting yourself more at risk even while doing something as ingrained and simple as driving just because of you unfamiliarity with that particular situation. Exactly the same as climbing a tree with branches if you've only practiced on limbless trees.
One sticking has been my primary climbing method while hunting now for three years. By my hunting logs I've climbed 245 +/- 5 trees in hunting situations in that time frame. My wife and friends will attest to the fact that I still head out to the woods on average at least once a week all summer long to "go climb some trees". While I haven't documented my practice sessions I think I can conservatively say I climb a minimum of 50 trees a summer. Those climbs include limbed trees, split trunks, leaners, etc. Anything I may reasonably expect to encounter in a hunting situation. An added benefit is it helps me visualize my setup on the ground when I get to a hunting situation. For instance, I don't need to spend as much time on the ground analyzing which trunk to setup on to achieve the best compromise between concealment and shooting access.
I've reached a point where the moves for a climb are almost automatic. On a whim I even self videoed a blindfolded climb from approach to the tree to 20' up last spring. I certainly wasn't hurrying and it still took me less than 4 minutes even completely blind folded. I'm not advocating anyone try this, I'm just using it to point out the power of practice. Other benefits of this type of practice are that the little steps become automatic. How many times have you been hanging at height and discovered that you forgot to lock a carabiner? It used to happen to me on a regular basis. I can say at this point if I for some reason I didn't lock a biner it was a completely conscious decision. I've gotten to the point that it doesn't feel natural to me to not spin the locking ring and pinch test a biner as part of installing each and every time I attach one. It's just become an automatic reaction.
Regardless of your climbing method, thorough practice will result in familiarity and competence and will by far be your best defense against an accident.
You'll also be safer if you develop a consistent, simple and repeatable process. Practice enough and that process becomes automatic much like driving your vehicle or brushing your teeth. Think about that for a minute though. Have you ever rented a car that's a different make/model and simply hopped in and headed down the road only to discover that you can't find the headlight switch or the windshield wiper controls? In those moments of searching suddenly you're putting yourself more at risk even while doing something as ingrained and simple as driving just because of you unfamiliarity with that particular situation. Exactly the same as climbing a tree with branches if you've only practiced on limbless trees.
One sticking has been my primary climbing method while hunting now for three years. By my hunting logs I've climbed 245 +/- 5 trees in hunting situations in that time frame. My wife and friends will attest to the fact that I still head out to the woods on average at least once a week all summer long to "go climb some trees". While I haven't documented my practice sessions I think I can conservatively say I climb a minimum of 50 trees a summer. Those climbs include limbed trees, split trunks, leaners, etc. Anything I may reasonably expect to encounter in a hunting situation. An added benefit is it helps me visualize my setup on the ground when I get to a hunting situation. For instance, I don't need to spend as much time on the ground analyzing which trunk to setup on to achieve the best compromise between concealment and shooting access.
I've reached a point where the moves for a climb are almost automatic. On a whim I even self videoed a blindfolded climb from approach to the tree to 20' up last spring. I certainly wasn't hurrying and it still took me less than 4 minutes even completely blind folded. I'm not advocating anyone try this, I'm just using it to point out the power of practice. Other benefits of this type of practice are that the little steps become automatic. How many times have you been hanging at height and discovered that you forgot to lock a carabiner? It used to happen to me on a regular basis. I can say at this point if I for some reason I didn't lock a biner it was a completely conscious decision. I've gotten to the point that it doesn't feel natural to me to not spin the locking ring and pinch test a biner as part of installing each and every time I attach one. It's just become an automatic reaction.
Regardless of your climbing method, thorough practice will result in familiarity and competence and will by far be your best defense against an accident.
I feel like SRT might come out as the winner from this thread.
But I must be missing something. It seem a lot of different variable was added to the questions that make it more of a gray area, espeically linesman belt. I mean, using a linesman belt while you're one sticking make it 'easier' and for moving around limbs, I do not know if its actually safer(as in increase safety) because wouldn't your tether catch you fairly quickly if you are advancing it properly and not have slack? This is just from my practices, granted I have not had accidents intentional or otherwise. I think aiders are more likely to increase injuries, but with proper tree contact, its minor injuries. I don't see the 4ft drop that seem to be the standard length that people are saying you would fall if your stick gave out, I shorten my tether as I advance, most I would slip is a foot if my stick fail. You can always play chicken with Murphy's Law but I feel like you are intentionally trying to be careless at that point.
Never had them happened, but JMHO, I rather slip 4 ft again the tree one sticking than ride it down handing 4 sticks with a linesman.
But again, practice reduce all the statistic no matter what methods you use.
But I must be missing something. It seem a lot of different variable was added to the questions that make it more of a gray area, espeically linesman belt. I mean, using a linesman belt while you're one sticking make it 'easier' and for moving around limbs, I do not know if its actually safer(as in increase safety) because wouldn't your tether catch you fairly quickly if you are advancing it properly and not have slack? This is just from my practices, granted I have not had accidents intentional or otherwise. I think aiders are more likely to increase injuries, but with proper tree contact, its minor injuries. I don't see the 4ft drop that seem to be the standard length that people are saying you would fall if your stick gave out, I shorten my tether as I advance, most I would slip is a foot if my stick fail. You can always play chicken with Murphy's Law but I feel like you are intentionally trying to be careless at that point.
Never had them happened, but JMHO, I rather slip 4 ft again the tree one sticking than ride it down handing 4 sticks with a linesman.
But again, practice reduce all the statistic no matter what methods you use.
We’ve had aiders as long or longer than one-sticking, and I do not think there is a pile of data to support an increase in injuries from their use. I could be wrong. Garrett at DIY Sportsman, who was referenced earlier having a 6 year old plus one sticking video, also has a video demonstrating climbing with an etrier/multi-step aider that is at least that old. That’s like climbing with nothing but an aider.
I’m not sure I buy that aiders are going to lead to an increase in injuries. I feel the same about one-sticking. If there is a place for increased risk of injury, I believe it lies in the improper use of equipment. Did you tie the correct knot? Did you misfeed your carabiner? Are you cross loading your carabiner? Are you using a mechanical device out of spec?
We’ve been climbing with sticks and aiders, with linemen belts dropping slack occasionally, and advancing tethers for a while. While I understand the risks are there, I kinda believe we would have seen a lot more injuries already.
The positive thing is people are becoming more aware of the safety concerns when leaving the ground.
I’m not sure I buy that aiders are going to lead to an increase in injuries. I feel the same about one-sticking. If there is a place for increased risk of injury, I believe it lies in the improper use of equipment. Did you tie the correct knot? Did you misfeed your carabiner? Are you cross loading your carabiner? Are you using a mechanical device out of spec?
We’ve been climbing with sticks and aiders, with linemen belts dropping slack occasionally, and advancing tethers for a while. While I understand the risks are there, I kinda believe we would have seen a lot more injuries already.
The positive thing is people are becoming more aware of the safety concerns when leaving the ground.
how many reports of sticks kicking out did you hear about prior to using aiders became part of mainstream discussion?
Ive been around a lot of folks climbing on sticks for a decade, and part of this forum for 5+ years, and I can’t recall conversations about sticks kicking out until aiders started Getting popular. I’ve not witnessed a stick kicking out by itself. But I have watched in person 3 people end up sideways in their saddle dangling from tether or LB trying to climb on aiders.
it’s not to say aiders are silent killers of the forest. But it’s kinda silly to think that the increase of risk is not pretty large here. Especially when you combine less sure footing with slack in anchors.
the etrier is not really an apt comparison, as the connection point to the top of it is not going to suddenly move 6 or 12 inches down or sideways. It’s unstable, but it’s predictably unstable. I’ll concede half a point here.
And my argument isnot that we’re about to start seeing more injuries. It’s that more have been happening already, unreported. And will only continue as more people who shouldn’t be climbing trees at all get their hands on shiny new toys.
And bad things tend to happen in bunches it seems like. This is a denominator issue. Law of averages will catch up at some point.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2021
- Messages
- 4,972
I’m confused. First it’s not the distance that you fall so much as how far you fall in correlation with available rope from your anchor point. So if you have two foot of rope between you and where your tether wraps the tree, scenario a) you’re below the hitch point with 2’ of rope and you fall less than a foot because your tether was at head height. It doesn’t generate much force and you maybe get a scrape or bruise. Scenario b) your tether is at chest height with that same 2’ of rope that you plan on using to advance as you climb. In this scenario you fall 2’ on 2’ of rope, the force verses the 1’ drop of scenario a) is literally doubled. This drop hurts. How bad? Well depends. Did your prusik slide? Did your rope stretch? We’re you hugging the tree to slow acceleration? Now let’s say scenario c) you have that same 2’ for advancing your tether. You climb until that 2’ is tight below your waist. While you reach down to advance the tether, you suffer a fall. You’ve now fallen 3 to 4’ on 2’ of rope. This generates massive amounts of force. Yea the tether will catch you but the most likely outcome is you end up severely hurt or worse. Your saddle isn’t designed to catch you, it’s designed to prevent you from falling. A linesman rope/belt when used properly does allow you to go around branches as you said, it allows you to work hands free leaning outward from the tree, but if it’s above your point of attachment (your waist) and weighted (your leaning out to tension it) it also locks the tree and instead of falling, you swing into the tree and get pinched there. Is that ideal? No! It is way better than falling several feet and being caught by the tether. The story @boyne bowhunter told from his fall, is the the exception to the rule, not the rule it’s self. By his own admission, that fall could have resulted in much worse and he made adjustments to be sure that scenario doesn’t play out again because statistically speaking, he might not be so lucky next time. So if you can use your linesman rope, while sticking, use it! But using it only helps if you use it properly.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2021
- Messages
- 4,972
I mean people have been climbing rope ladders since ships were prominent means of sea voyage some 1000 years ago. I honestly have no idea how many people have been injured from aiders. Most of the tracking data focuses on types of stands used when falls occur, there isn’t much available on type of climbing methods utilized during falls. Also how many people actually report falls if they aren’t severely hurt? In the story above he still continued to hunt. Most people in that scenario aren’t reporting falls to any wildlife or tree stand safety agencies. Just food for thought. Again I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just offering a different perspective. Honestly if you’re attaching an aider you’re probably using your climbing stick out of spec which is why most companies that make climbing sticks, do not make and sell aiders for them. It has to do with the distribution of weight and liability.
In regards to sticks kicking out…I am sure aiders contribute to that as mentioned but I also feel strongly that alternative attachment methods (non cam buckle strap) also do. I am particularly thinking about the amsteel daisy chain which feels as tight as a cam buckle strap when you set the stick but if that stick moves upwards even a quarter inch that stick can fly sideways.
This is really the only reason I get involved in these conversations. I’ve successfully changed minds in a couple instances. Not because a specific point about a specific topic was being made. But because the framing was done correctly. And that can only be done with constant exposure. It’s worth 20 annoying conversations if one person upgrades their thinking and action.
I don’t think that aiders are the devil. I think 100 people talking about the weight savings of aiders, and how to tie them in, and all their advantages, and 0 people pointing out increase in tail risk that occurs using them, is what’s dangerous. It plagues every inch of humanity.
My experience is aiders attached to the bottom double step weight the stick so that it’s really stable. The attachment to the tree & the transitions have been the issues I’ve experienced & have ditched Versa straps & daisy chain style connections for sticks for that very reason. When someone adds steps to a stick or platform they are changing the geometry of how the device was engineered to be used & therefore adding/accepting risk by doing so.
Ok, that make sense. Thank you for clarifying that. I guess I didn't understand the concept of falling that long because I usually dont feel slack in my saddle as I am one sticking, only time I really feel slack in my tether is when I advance it, but then at that point I am leaning against my linesman belt. But this thinking is wrong because accidents happens because of something unexpected occurring.
In regards to the overall topic, there might be more reports of accidents, but I think its more of an overall result of technology and accountability. Similar to reports of car accidents once auto insurance were required instead of recommended. For the first few years of that transition, reports of car accidents sky rocketed, but this was a result of people having insurance and using it, rather then just trying to handle it themselves out of pocket and off the record. While some people are still doing it (I myself fender bender someone once and honored a handshake to pay for repairing it) rather then risk reporting it and increase in premium, most rather let the insurance company handle it. This might also be a reflection of the lack of trust between fellow strangers.
I don't think one sticking will result in more accidents overall, but will reflect similar reported accident rate in other climbing method. We all had the bottom of a climber gave way once in our hunting history, but the only story we really remember are the one that didn't have the bottom correctly attached to the top and the result is you calling your buddy because you are stuck 20 ft up a tree.
Marmuzz
Well-Known Member
Or any webbing daisy chain for that matter. Sticks squeak and shift slightly when secured with those. Aside from those I’ve only ever used a cam buckle strap and the difference is night and day. I imagine any strap or device with jaws to prevent rope from retreating, thus preventing the stick from moving at all, have to be more secure.
Just curious. Why does almost everyone say set your platform higher than your sticks when the transition from sticks to platform is the "most dangerous" step in the process? That step always puts slack in your tether.
For the record I don’t see any benefit besides a small height gain in doing this. Plus a platform set at the same height gives you more real estate to move around on……
I have only ever heard it recommended that you put your platform at the same height as your top stick step. Give or take an inch?
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2020
- Messages
- 1,963
Help me understand the difference between one-sticking with aiders and multi-sticking with aiders. Other than a tether is used with one-sticking and not with multi-sticking. A linesman's loop should be used with both methods. Looks to me like one-sticking is safer than multi-sticking as long as a linesman's loop is used with both methods. If you fall multi-sticking with aiders using a linesman's loop and it doesn't stop you right off and you slide down the tree your going to get some bad tree rash (how far will you slide). If your one-sticking and you fall and you linesman's loop doesn't stop you right off the tether, even if its 4 foot down the tree, will stop you.