Another one-sticking safety thread (sigh)

[kyler1945]

Just curious. Why does almost everyone say set your platform higher than your sticks when the transition from sticks to platform is the "most dangerous" step in the process? That step always puts slack in your tether.

anyone who cares about what the effect of what they’re saying actually has, doesn’t say this. But you have a bunch of people saying ‘I get x height with this climbing method and platform set 15 or 18 or 24” above it” as a way to describe their gear’s benefits.

this is the problem I described above. It’s a runaway feature(or bug, if depending on perspective) of social apes. The desire to be liked or fit in is far stronger than the desire to describe reality, or to consider the safety of a random person or group of people 1000 miles away.

 

[JSEXTON23]

the etrier is not really an apt comparison, as the connection point to the top of it is not going to suddenly move 6 or 12 inches down or sideways. It’s unstable, but it’s predictably unstable. I’ll concede half a point here.

I’m not trying to get bogged down in words but I think it’s an apt comparison when talking about aiders and kick out. I’ll concede a little but I think 7/8 point is more appropriate.

The bigger issue here is self-accountability, knowing your limits, and accepting your own rush exposure level.

I’ve climbed with aiders for 4 years and I’ve never experienced a kick out. In fact, the only time I’ve had an issue with a stick was not having proper strap tension and when I stepped into my platform the bottom of the stick came out perpendicular to the tree trunk. And that was before I used aiders.

I drive in a car everyday, with people texting and driving. By some people’s standards the roads should be impassible due to the amount of accidents caused by the increased risk factor. Sure, there are statistically more accidents caused by texting distractions now that texting is a thing when contrasted to times before that capability was in use. My point still stands with aiders. If they were so much more of a danger people would have stopped using them at such high rates. What seems to have happened is people have learned their limits or become more cautious when using them. They’ve adapted their abilities while accepting the increased baseline risk exposure. Or they stopped using aiders. Good for those people that recognized their limits and risk tolerance. Personally responsible people.

 

[HuumanCreed]

This is really the only reason I get involved in these conversations. I’ve successfully changed minds in a couple instances. Not because a specific point about a specific topic was being made. But because the framing was done correctly. And that can only be done with constant exposure. It’s worth 20 annoying conversations if one person upgrades their thinking and action.

I don’t think that aiders are the devil. I think 100 people talking about the weight savings of aiders, and how to tie them in, and all their advantages, and 0 people pointing out increase in tail risk that occurs using them, is what’s dangerous. It plagues every inch of humanity.

My mind have been changed during one of these conversations. Honest truth. Because I was not very safety concerned early when I started. Felt I was invincible and wanted to try to prove myself to my father-in-law. He's one of those 'cant teach old dog a new trick' guy that is stubborn in his way now that he is 70+. He's kind of my mentor that I usually goes to if I had a hunting question, this is due to his life time of success in his method. He still climb makeshift wood ladder blind stand that are held together with ropes and zipties left there year round. Never use a lifeline in his life and kind of give me the 'you kids and your gadgets, in the old days we tough it out' attitude when I talk about safety concerns. I felt a need to get his approval by not being as concerned as him, if that make any sense.

But I got over the hero worships because I realized safety cost nothing and caring about it does not make me less 'manly'. That the extra time it take to setup because of the extra safety measures cost me nothing but a few minutes, but give way more ease of mind in return.

 

[Bigterp]

Help me understand the difference between one-sticking with aiders and multi-sticking with aiders. Other than a tether is used with one-sticking and not with multi-sticking. A linesman's loop should be used with both methods. Looks to me like one-sticking is safer than multi-sticking as long as a linesman's loop is used with both methods. If you fall multi-sticking with aiders using a linesman's loop and it doesn't stop you right off and you slide down the tree your going to get some bad tree rash (how far will you slide). If your one-sticking and you fall and you linesman's loop doesn't stop you right off the tether, even if its 4 foot down the tree, will stop you.

One of the biggest differences in one sticking is your swinging out unweighting the stick hanging from your tether & climbing back on. With multiple sticks your ascending vertically in line for the most part & on fairly solid footing most of the trip.

 

[_Dario]

Help me understand the difference between one-sticking with aiders and multi-sticking with aiders. Other than a tether is used with one-sticking and not with multi-sticking. A linesman's loop should be used with both methods. Looks to me like one-sticking is safer than multi-sticking as long as a linesman's loop is used with both methods. If you fall multi-sticking with aiders using a linesman's loop and it doesn't stop you right off and you slide down the tree your going to get some bad tree rash (how far will you slide). If your one-sticking and you fall and you linesman's loop doesn't stop you right off the tether, even if its 4 foot down the tree, will stop you.

intuitively what you’re saying seems true, but the devil is in the details:

-“Other than a tether is used with one-sticking and not with multi-sticking. A linesman's loop should be used with both methods.”

-does your one-stick have a cam cleat? That is likely not as secure as a stick secured with cam buckle.

-does your one-stick use an aider while your multiple sticks have none? The one-stick is likely less stable and more prone to kickout.

I agree with mostly everything after that - if you are one-sticking or climbing with sticks without a linesman belt you are being a real bucket head.

 

[kyler1945]

I’m not trying to get bogged down in words but I think it’s an apt comparison when talking about aiders and kick out. I’ll concede a little but I think 7/8 point is more appropriate.

The bigger issue here is self-accountability, knowing your limits, and accepting your own rush exposure level.

I’ve climbed with aiders for 4 years and I’ve never experienced a kick out. In fact, the only time I’ve had an issue with a stick was not having proper strap tension and when I stepped into my platform the bottom of the stick came out perpendicular to the tree trunk. And that was before I used aiders.

I drive in a car everyday, with people texting and driving. By some people’s standards the roads should be impassible due to the amount of accidents caused by the increased risk factor. Sure, there are statistically more accidents caused by texting distractions now that texting is a thing when contrasted to times before that capability was in use. My point still stands with aiders. If they were so much more of a danger people would have stopped using them at such high rates. What seems to have happened is people have learned their limits or become more cautious when using them. They’ve adapted their abilities while accepting the increased baseline risk exposure. Or they stopped using aiders. Good for those people that recognized their limits and risk tolerance. Personally responsible people.

3/4 of a point final offer haha!

I share similar personal experiences with you.

and I’m not advocating to police people with laws. We also agree there.

In fact, we agree on probably 90% of the stuff we could discuss.

My purpose isn’t a precise outcome. I don’t want people to like me or praise me as my main goal. I don’t mind having friends though. And my point isn’t to scare careful thoughtful athletic people with excellent visuospatial awareness into not using lightweight climbing methods or kill deer from trees.

It’s to change the framing of the conversation from one focused more on looking at the issue like everyone else, to one focused on a more realistic depiction of what’s happening. And to get people who aren’t careful, thoughtful, maybe eat a few too many value meals, and can’t do basic geometry with their eyes, to think through what they’re doing at the right level of analysis.

the conversation inevitably turns to “you’re responsible for yourself”. I don’t disagree. But there’s 7 billion of us now. And we can split an atom, sequence DNA, and are barreling towards creating artificial general intelligence. And we don’t have a backup copy of earth yet while we run these traps. Might be a good idea to be a little more concerned with each other’s welfare in the meantime.

 

[kyler1945]

My mind have been changed during one of these conversations. Honest truth. Because I was not very safety concerned early when I started. Felt I was invincible and wanted to try to prove myself to my father-in-law. He's one of those 'cant teach old dog a new trick' guy that is stubborn in his way now that he is 70+. He's kind of my mentor that I usually goes to if I had a hunting question, this is due to his life time of success in his method. He still climb makeshift wood ladder blind stand that are held together with ropes and zipties left there year round. Never use a lifeline in his life and kind of give me the 'you kids and your gadgets, in the old days we tough it out' attitude when I talk about safety concerns. I felt a need to get his approval by not being as concerned as him, if that make any sense.

But I got over the hero worships because I realized safety cost nothing and caring about it does not make me less 'manly'. That the extra time it take to setup because of the extra safety measures cost me nothing but a few minutes, but give way more ease of mind in return.

Yup. Safety is like sewing. Your friends make fun of you until you’re not buying expensive packs and other gear, and your stuff fits your body and needs perfectly. Suddenly it doesn’t seem so girly.

Plus, women are pretty awesome at a lot of stuff. Being compared to them isn’t so bad.

 

[CooterBrown]

One of the biggest differences in one sticking is your swinging out unweighting the stick hanging from your tether & climbing back on. With multiple sticks your ascending vertically in line for the most part & on fairly solid footing most of the trip.

But unless your tether fails your secured at that point right. Never do I see someone get on or off there one-stick unless there tether is all the way up as far as they can reach and it is tight. But when a person goes from the top of there multi-stick to the bottom of there next sticks aider the only thing they have is a lineman's loop. One stickers have a linesman's loop and a tether at this transition correct?

 

[HuumanCreed]

I don’t mind having friends though.

I'll be your friend for the price of a brick of .22LR. PRE COVID!

 

[CooterBrown]

intuitively what you’re saying seems true, but the devil is in the details:

-“Other than a tether is used with one-sticking and not with multi-sticking. A linesman's loop should be used with both methods.”

-does your one-stick have a cam cleat? That is likely not as secure as a stick secured with cam buckle.

-does your one-stick use an aider while your multiple sticks have none? The one-stick is likely less stable and more prone to kickout.

I agree with mostly everything after that - if you are one-sticking or climbing with sticks without a linesman belt you are being a real bucket head.

" Help me understand the difference between one-sticking with aiders and multi-sticking with aiders " I was referring to both styles having aiders.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

For the record I don’t see any benefit besides a small height gain in doing this. Plus a platform set at the same height gives you more real estate to move around on……

That’s right… use that step for extra real estate to shoot around the tree. One more time for those in the back lol

 

[JSEXTON23]

3/4 of a point final offer haha!

I share similar personal experiences with you.

and I’m not advocating to police people with laws. We also agree there.

In fact, we agree on probably 90% of the stuff we could discuss.

My purpose isn’t a precise outcome. I don’t want people to like me or praise me as my main goal. I don’t mind having friends though. And my point isn’t to scare careful thoughtful athletic people with excellent visuospatial awareness into not using lightweight climbing methods or kill deer from trees.

It’s to change the framing of the conversation from one focused more on looking at the issue like everyone else, to one focused on a more realistic depiction of what’s happening. And to get people who aren’t careful, thoughtful, maybe eat a few too many value meals, and can’t do basic geometry with their eyes, to think through what they’re doing at the right level of analysis.

the conversation inevitably turns to “you’re responsible for yourself”. I don’t disagree. But there’s 7 billion of us now. And we can split an atom, sequence DNA, and are barreling towards creating artificial general intelligence. And we don’t have a backup copy of earth yet while we run these traps. Might be a good idea to be a little more concerned with each other’s welfare in the meantime.

#1 Deal

#2 We can certainly be friends!

#3 I appreciate your thoughtfulness and your desire to frame discussions as you describe. It is important to consider the unexpected and undesirable consequences of our actions. We generally suck at that as a species. That’s a major reason why I’ve been rooting for the asteroid for many years. Not because I want to see our species suffer, but an alternative civilization collapse caused by our own ignorance scares me more than dematerialization into vapor.

 

[_Dario]

" Help me understand the difference between one-sticking with aiders and multi-sticking with aiders " I was referring to both styles having aiders.

yup I am still working on my coffee.

I agree with your statement. I am personally willing to accept the risk of one-sticking when I am using a linesman belt because I feel that it levels the risk more in line with my own ability climbing with multiple sticks. I think you’d be hard pressed to find someone on here that disagrees and advocates one sticking with no LB.

 

[gcr0003]

That’s right… use that step for extra real estate to shoot around the tree. One more time for those in the back lol

Nah, Id take my extra 2 feet and all the risk that comes with it thank you very much.

 

[_Dario]

On second thought maybe you wouldn’t be hard pressed. There are a lot of folks out there with the same ‘tougher than gravity’ attitude as the father-in-law mentioned above (no offense friend).

 

[SNIPERBBB]

Just curious. Why does almost everyone say set your platform higher than your sticks when the transition from sticks to platform is the "most dangerous" step in the process? That step always puts slack in your tether.

Are they stepping to the platform from the bottom step of the stick? If so that would make sense as you would need to get the platform higher so there's no interference with the platform strap.

 

[DroptineKrazy]

Are they stepping to the platform from the bottom step of the stick? If so that would make sense as you would need to get the platform higher so there's no interference with the platform strap.

No. I have seen multiple people say it to gain a couple extra feet in hunting height.

 

[Fl Canopy Stalker]

But unless your tether fails your secured at that point right. Never do I see someone get on or off there one-stick unless there tether is all the way up as far as they can reach and it is tight. But when a person goes from the top of there multi-stick to the bottom of there next sticks aider the only thing they have is a lineman's loop. One stickers have a linesman's loop and a tether at this transition correct?

Wait what??? When you climb for the aider to the bottom step you reach down and pull the tether up to advance it.. at least every one stick climber I have ever seen does this. That is slack in your tether. Most aren’t using linesman ropes while one sticking. I think some of us are advocating that people do use it during that activity. Also when climbing multiple sticks, you set your linesman rope high and you step all while leaning out to keep slack on it. If you’re using the right rope and technique, you don’t even hold the tree or stick while you climb. Your hands can stay on your lineman’s rope. You step step flip, step step flip. The “flip” is advancing the rope so that it is always above your waist level. So no true slack should ever be introduced into that system. The lone exception is when you reach around to connect the next step on larger trees. In which case you make 100% sure that you have your linesman rope as high as you can get it and pulled in taut.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

No. I have seen multiple people say it to gain a couple extra feet in hunting height.

In this case the slack problem can easily be taken care of. You can use a your safeguard/Grigri and a beener on a prusik or hand ascender to pull slack as you make the transition.

 

[JSEXTON23]

Wait what??? When you climb for the aider to the bottom step you reach down and pull the tether up to advance it.. at least every one stick climber I have ever seen does this. That is slack in your tether. Most aren’t using linesman ropes while one sticking. I think some of us are advocating that people do use it during that activity. Also when climbing multiple sticks, you set your linesman rope high and you step all while leaning out to keep slack on it. If you’re using the right rope and technique, you don’t even hold the tree or stick while you climb. Your hands can stay on your lineman’s rope. You step step flip, step step flip. The “flip” is advancing the rope so that it is always above your waist level. So no true slack should ever be introduced into that system. The lone exception is when you reach around to connect the next step on larger trees. In which case you make 100% sure that you have your linesman rope as high as you can get it and pulled in taut.

You’re flipping that lineman from somewhere lower to somewhere higher. In those short moments you do in fact have slack in your system.