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Saddle Death… Stay safe out there.

Back on topic. Terrible tragedy. My best guess would be his foot got caught high somehow, which made righting himself impossible. Someone further up in the thread presented a scenario with the foot loop that sounded plausible to me.

I don't think we will ever know for sure what happened. The other hunter or rescue personnel would probably have seen how he was stuck, but given the high stress of the situation and their likely unfamiliarity with saddle hunting and climbing methods, they likely can't recall specific details.

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neonomad said:
If there were another wave of game changing saddle innovation to sweep the hobby, safety related evolution wouldn’t be the worst place to start. For example sell me the fix, or mitigation, to moderate static falls.
Click to expand...
That kind of takes us back full circle to the OG aerohunter stuff doesn’t it?
That would require people to stop worrying about ounces. We would need to listen to people with real world climbing and elevated working knowledge, not you tube University drop outs… And most importantly, all of us would have to slow the hype train and me too movements of the saddle hunting world. That is a lot to ask of a niche market of guys during today’s social media platforms. Unfortunately I am convinced it’s gonna get worse long before it gets better.
 
So sad for his family. Praying for them today.

This tragedy may save some lives by giving us all a good reminder at the biggining of the season that things can go wrong. We must slow down and ensure that we are mitgating risk as much as possible. Even if you are experienced with your system do not let complacency creep in. Everyone be safe out there and lets make stories like this as rare as possible.
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
That kind of takes us back full circle to the OG aerohunter stuff doesn’t it?
That would require people to stop worrying about ounces. We would need to listen to people with real world climbing and elevated working knowledge, not you tube University drop outs… And most importantly, all of us would have to slow the hype train and me too movements of the saddle hunting world. That is a lot to ask of a niche market of guys during today’s social media platforms. Unfortunately I am convinced it’s gonna get worse long before it gets better.
Click to expand...
Wait, you mean people with actual experience from industries/areas like climbing, mountaineering, and arborist where people have already died and there are actual companies that test using scientific methods and spec their products for very specific uses? I thought everyone on Youtube with zero actual training were the industry experts??? People should design things that don't break before putting them on the market and test them for more than 6 months????? And wait, selling them as what they are instead of "Positioning" aids???

This whole community, the manufacturers and the "youtube" hunters that all want to represent themselves as "expert" climbers with no actual certifications or experience need to pull their heads out of their asses, stand behind their products(when things go wrong, not just right), put safety first instead of publicity and money, and look to other industries that have been around for decades for guidance on protocol and best practices.

This is so sad that this accident happened and I dont want to take away from the accident, and the pain and sorrow it has caused his friends, family, and community. If the saddle hunting industry doesn't make a strong change in direction it is going to happen more. I miss the days of old TL saddles on ebay for hundreds of dollars and everyone wasn't drooling after the next "game Changer" that has been shoved down their throats by the marketing machine.
 
I’m still trying to figure out the inversion and no reversal. I flip upside down all the time climbing. This intrigues me
 
Lowg08 said:
I’m still trying to figure out the inversion and no reversal. I flip upside down all the time climbing. This intrigues me
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Perhaps the method he was using to climb down had foot loops and multiple lines to get tangled up on? Maybe it had multiple bridges that somehow interfered? Maybe he was too top heavy to flip himself back upright? We will probably never know.
 
Vtbow said:
Wait, you mean people with actual experience from industries/areas like climbing, mountaineering, and arborist where people have already died and there are actual companies that test using scientific methods and spec their products for very specific uses? I thought everyone on Youtube with zero actual training were the industry experts??? People should design things that don't break before putting them on the market and test them for more than 6 months????? And wait, selling them as what they are instead of "Positioning" aids???

This whole community, the manufacturers and the "youtube" hunters that all want to represent themselves as "expert" climbers with no actual certifications or experience need to pull their heads out of their asses, stand behind their products(when things go wrong, not just right), put safety first instead of publicity and money, and look to other industries that have been around for decades for guidance on protocol and best practices.

This is so sad that this accident happened and I dont want to take away from the accident, and the pain and sorrow it has caused his friends, family, and community. If the saddle hunting industry doesn't make a strong change in direction it is going to happen more. I miss the days of old TL saddles on ebay for hundreds of dollars and everyone wasn't drooling after the next "game Changer" that has been shoved down their throats by the marketing machine.
Click to expand...
Yes sir that’s what I mean…
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Perhaps the method he was using to climb down had foot loops and multiple lines to get tangled up on? Maybe it had multiple bridges that somehow interfered? Maybe he was too top heavy to flip himself back upright? We will probably never know.
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you dont use any foot loops descending from the JRB. He demonstrated using a Munter to descent. The accident must of happened when he started to setup to go down. Which make sense since most accident involving tree stand climbing is when you are setting up and getting off the tree stand, usually not the actual climb.

Some details that would provide a clear picture. How far away was he from his platform/ROS? Did his platform look like it was setup right or was it kicked out?

Could be the accident happened not while he was in the process of 'closing shop' But he fell from his platform, but because the way he was hanging, they think he was already down.
 
HuumanCreed said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you dont use any foot loops descending from the JRB. He demonstrated using a Munter to descent. The accident must of happened when he started to setup to go down. Which make sense since most accident involving tree stand climbing is when you are setting up and getting off the tree stand, usually not the actual climb.

Some details that would provide a clear picture. How far away was he from his platform/ROS? Did his platform look like it was setup right or was it kicked out?

Could be the accident happened not while he was in the process of 'closing shop' But he fell from his platform, but because the way he was hanging, they think he was already down.
Click to expand...
I have no idea. I don’t know that he was using JRB to climb or descend. I also saw no mention of a platform that was or wasn’t kicked out. Honestly he may have been climbing up not down because no one was there with him until after the incident occurred. Everything is speculation. All I am saying is that there were factors that made it possible to go inverted and also something (could be his physical health?) that made him unable to recover as well.
 
tyson12590 said:
So sad for his family. Praying for them today.

This tragedy may save some lives by giving us all a good reminder at the biggining of the season that things can go wrong. We must slow down and ensure that we are mitgating risk as much as possible. Even if you are experienced with your system do not let complacency creep in. Everyone be safe out there and lets make stories like this as rare as possible.
Click to expand...

Good post. We've all felt the pressure to get up a tree quick and maybe trying to beat sunrise....it isn't worth it. A boonie buck is still just a deer in the grand scheme of things. Don't climb faster than you can safely. Don't take unreasonable risks. Don't get mad/frustrated to the point where it influences your safety/carefulness. Don't climb so tired/hungry/whatever that you aren't sufficiently in the moment. It's just a hobby.
 
For those in the rock climbing community, when there is a fatality, how does information related to it get processed and shared, to improve practice?

I keep hearing us say "we'll never know", but that is unacceptable to me. We HAVE to know. This thread is, understandably, so full of speculation and assumptions.

Since we all guess at the causes and circumstances, we then guess at the solutions and improved safety techniques. I can't imagine the rock cimbing community/industry responds to a fatality with guesses. All safety improvement is good, but we don't add more airbags to cars when someone dies falling down a set of stairs. You laser in on what caused the fall and death and work to fix that specific issue.

Our hearts all break for the family, and we implore each other to be "safe"...but it is entirely unclear why our colleague was being unsafe, beyond the general risk of tree climbing. In fact all I know is that he purportedly was heavily involved in a sub community that is designed to improve the safety of climbing trees. A community in which a recently stated goal is to reduce risk to 1 in a million. What a terribly ironic tragedy.



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TNSTAAFL said:
For those in the rock climbing community, when there is a fatality, how does information related to it get processed and shared, to improve practice?

I keep hearing us say "we'll never know", but that is unacceptable to me. We HAVE to know. This thread is, understandably, so full of speculation and assumptions.

Since we all guess at the causes and circumstances, we then guess at the solutions and improved safety techniques. I can't imagine the rock cimbing community/industry responds to a fatality with guesses. All safety improvement is good, but we don't add more airbags to cars when someone dies falling down a set of stairs. You laser in on what caused the fall and death and work to fix that specific issue.

Our hearts all break for the family, and we implore each other to be "safe"...but it is entirely unclear why our colleague was being unsafe, beyond the general risk of tree climbing. In fact all I know is that he purportedly was heavily involved in a sub community that is designed to improve the safety of climbing trees. A community in which a recently stated goal is to reduce risk to 1 in a million. What a terribly ironic tragedy.



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Click to expand...
When there is a major accident in the climbing community(in NA), a group of professionals generally visits the scene and does a post review and debrief. The examine and recreate the scenario and make the best educated conclusion of cause and factors. The major ones are then documented and published by the American Alpine Club yearly and released to the public for purchase, or free to AAC members. "Accidents in North American Climbing" previously "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" uses these events as teaching moments to communicate what went wrong so as to keep them from being repeated.

AAC Publications

Search the complete archives of the American Alpine Journal and Accidents in North American Climbing, published by the American Alpine Club.
publications.americanalpineclub.org
 
I see he lived in Iowa.. Does anyone have any connections to law enforcement or fire department people in that area who may have heard about it? With out going to the family. I'm sure what ever went wrong he would want us all to know so as to avoid it happening.
 
Vtbow said:
When there is a major accident in the climbing community(in NA), a group of professionals generally visits the scene and does a post review and debrief. The examine and recreate the scenario and make the best educated conclusion of cause and factors. The major ones are then documented and published by the American Alpine Club yearly and released to the public for purchase, or free to AAC members. "Accidents in North American Climbing" previously "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" uses these events as teaching moments to communicate what went wrong so as to keep them from being repeated.

AAC Publications

Search the complete archives of the American Alpine Journal and Accidents in North American Climbing, published by the American Alpine Club.
publications.americanalpineclub.org
Click to expand...
Thank you. I presumed there was something of this nature. I would think in this instance some level of local authority is examining the scene (tree, gear, body/autopsy. etc). I wonder if there is any chance any of that information will make its way back to us?

I also wonder if there has ever been consideration of adding tree climbing (including for hunting purposes) into the domain of rock climbing? For safety standards, best practices, and efforts like the ones you mentioned. I'm talking beyond TMA CYA type stuff. I know saddle hunting is an extremely small niche, inside a small niche (hunting).

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TNSTAAFL said:
Thank you. I presumed there was something of this nature. I would think in this instance some level of local authority is examining the scene (tree, gear, body/autopsy. etc). I wonder if there is any chance any of that information will make its way back to us?

I also wonder if there has ever been consideration of adding tree climbing (including for hunting purposes) into the domain of rock climbing? For safety standards, best practices, and efforts like the ones you mentioned. I'm talking beyond TMA CYA type stuff. I know saddle hunting is an extremely small niche, inside a small niche (hunting).

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Click to expand...
I doubt we will ever get detailed information on what occurred. People on scene were likely not versed in what he was trying to do and assessing/preserving the setup was almost certainly not even a consideration at the time.

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Vtbow said:
Wait, you mean people with actual experience from industries/areas like climbing, mountaineering, and arborist where people have already died and there are actual companies that test using scientific methods and spec their products for very specific uses? I thought everyone on Youtube with zero actual training were the industry experts??? People should design things that don't break before putting them on the market and test them for more than 6 months????? And wait, selling them as what they are instead of "Positioning" aids???

This whole community, the manufacturers and the "youtube" hunters that all want to represent themselves as "expert" climbers with no actual certifications or experience need to pull their heads out of their asses, stand behind their products(when things go wrong, not just right), put safety first instead of publicity and money, and look to other industries that have been around for decades for guidance on protocol and best practices.

This is so sad that this accident happened and I dont want to take away from the accident, and the pain and sorrow it has caused his friends, family, and community. If the saddle hunting industry doesn't make a strong change in direction it is going to happen more. I miss the days of old TL saddles on ebay for hundreds of dollars and everyone wasn't drooling after the next "game Changer" that has been shoved down their throats by the marketing machine.
Click to expand...


Strongly agree with everything mentioned here.

I’ve preached this since a certain Company began selling faulty products, one which nearly cost me my life in 2019, yet nothing come of it.

Unfortunately it took someone losing their life to make folks realize, even saddle hunting is dangerous. Suspension Trauma is very real. You don’t even have to be inverted; by just cutting off circulation to both femoral arteries, you’ll be in bad shape in as little as 10 minutes.

I’m hopeful things change and we honor this mans life by reevaluating how the industry pushes products and climbing methods.

Don’t follow a YouTuber. Follow Firefighter Rope Tech’s, Arborists, Rock Climbers etc...
 
Vtbow said:
When there is a major accident in the climbing community(in NA), a group of professionals generally visits the scene and does a post review and debrief. The examine and recreate the scenario and make the best educated conclusion of cause and factors. The major ones are then documented and published by the American Alpine Club yearly and released to the public for purchase, or free to AAC members. "Accidents in North American Climbing" previously "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" uses these events as teaching moments to communicate what went wrong so as to keep them from being repeated.

AAC Publications

Search the complete archives of the American Alpine Journal and Accidents in North American Climbing, published by the American Alpine Club.
publications.americanalpineclub.org
Click to expand...
Correct and the TMA does similar investigations for tree stand incidents and deaths. This is why having some forms of standards and regulations will be a good thing not the evil thing some people think it will be. There are times when rules and regulations are helpful to our general safety. I mean think about all these warning labels… somewhere down the line someone decided it was smart to drink radiator fluid or eat tide pods so those companies needed to warn the public not to do that. They can’t stop you from doing it but at least you were warned that it could or would kill you.
 
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