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Getting learnt with Dr. Ed Ashby

I’ve always leaned towards heavier arrows and fixed blade heads, nice to see more guys headed that direction. I’ve been shooting a 530 grain set up but wanted to add a little more weight and have been really interested in Iron Will broadheads. I took the plunge last week, added weight up front and have some shiny new iron wills.

28” Easton Axis .260
225 grains up front (BH, insert and footer)
580 grains ~17% FOC

They fly great, can’t wait to try this set up on a hog or deer!

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For me personally, I thought about that very idea. I shot Rage Trypans this past year. Aside from shaft failure due to my own ignorance, the blades bent on rib hits. Bent on both deer, just hitting ribs. In my opinion they are as close to a disposable head as you can get, and they're not cheap. I would much rather learn to resharpen a head I can reuse. I used replaceable fixed blade broadheads 26 of the 28 years I've been hunting deer with a bow, and never had as difficult year as I did this past year. I have had blades break off the replaceable broad heads I've used in the past. The Ranch Fairy's ideas about blood trails makes sense to me. If we start putting shots further forward I think we wouldn't need to be so worried about getting on 100+ yard blood trails. But we need to build in insurance when we move the shot forward. Blood trails are the reason I used the mechs in the first place, it didn't work out great for me so I'm going back to what I had success with before....... but better. No replaceable blades, and heads with some moxie. Screw that head into stainless steel instead of aluminum and most of the work is done. I've had 3 or 4 bad hits in my 28 years that I'm pretty sure if I was shooting what I'll be shooting next year they would be dead deer. For me from here forward I will not be under gunned.

I’m worried about thick cover and recovery. I just can’t get past it. In my mind the blood trail is so important in thick nasty areas. I also think that’s a little hypocritical of me as well bc a mechanical can’t punch thru a bit of vegetation the way a fixed blade could but I have never had to consider anything but a clear shot.

It’s a tough call. I’m leaning heavily toward high FOC mechanical. I’ve been happy with my mechanicals and the blood trails.
 
The point the ranch fairy is trying to get with the heavy high foc setup with cut on contact broadhead is that the animal doesn't realize it's been hit because there is no energy transfer at the point of impact because it slices it's way thru hide and flesh whereas a mechanical dumps energy at that moment to deploy the blades and the animal most certainly feels that and reacts accordingly by running hard and fast. He says and has video to back it up of a deer being hit and trotting 30 yds and then it stops and looks around wondering what just took place and very shortly after that falling down within sight. His theory is you shouldn't need a blood trail (and it definitely shouldn't be a priority when building an arrow system) when the animals don't run hard and expire within sight.
 
Not a magnum load but I shot a pig with a 580 cut on contact and it made a small squeal and stood there till it saw me...then trotted off ....not running

Reacted like a bee sting
 
Not sure if you read Dr. Ashby's reports but if you haven't I highly recommend it, they're a wealth of insight into arrow performance. Anyway, his first principle and he feels the most important is structural integrity. We all know mechanicals are built with light weight components and just about everyone will agree they're a one time use item. Now when everything goes right they're performance is awesome but when the stars don't line up and Mr. Murphy crashes the party, well lets just say mechanicals have caused many a great deal of stress and anxiety. So they're the epotome of the expression "Hero or Zero". Why take a chance with potential subpar performance on the trophy buck of a lifetime when you have the knowledge and ability to stack the deck in your favor on a positive outcome? You don't want that to take place and spend the rest of your life thinking "what if I had a fixed blade..."
 
I've stayed out of this one for 10 pages, but I gotta chime in.

Putting this much thought and effort into building arrows is a little silly in my mind. It's good to see guys thinking about their setups and how they're tuned, but my experience is that almost any arrow/broadhead combo will kill deer with boring predictability as long as the bow is tuned and the archer has his act together.

I've shot end-of-season clearance arrows/heads for years. That means I've shot "twizzlers and flappers" and "telephone poles and spear tips." Whatever was cheap. I've also had the dubious privilege of listening to many, MANY stories of unsuccessful shots and recoveries. I don't know that a customer ever walked up to the counter with his setup after losing a deer and the conculsion was, "Man, you need more FOC." Usually it was a bow that was pathetically out of tune or (more often) a shooter that shot a lot better in his head than he did in the range. All of my personal sob stories are the results of malfunctions in the onboard targeting computer.

Take almost any broadhead/arrow/bow off of the wall at your local sporting goods store today, set it up correctly, and place an arrow below the spine, above the brisket, behind the shoulder, and forward of the diaphragm of any whitetail inside of 40 yards and the results are quite predictable. Deer are easy to kill.

I agree there is a peace-of-mind factor to a heavier setup and a robust, COC head if you're worried about a shoulder. There's also a little peace-of-mind factor to be gained from a lighter arrow if you're worried about the difference between a 35 and a 40 yard shot. But most of this is in your head more than it is in the field.

The same marketing geniuses that convinced folks they needed a 2.5" wide expandable are now convincing folks they need a 300 grain COC. If you want it, cool. You don't need it, and the guy reading this don't need it. Chances are you need to shoot more deer and exorcise your inner bowhunter demons. That's hard to do while you're at work or on the couch though.

Same thing that holds for arrows holds for bullets. I've killed (and lost) deer with 80 grain pills and 450 grain slugs. Light and fast, heavy and slow...it probably don't matter to most of the hunters shooting most of the deer.

I have nothing against Dr. Ashby or the fairies, aside from the fact that they seem to be a bandwagon. But hey, I saddlehunt. ;) I do get irritated by folks assuming buying and using gear will solve a problem (jaded tech for sure.) Guarantee that the folks who are switching to heavier setups because they plugged a shoulder or didn't have their bow setup correctly and got poor penetration as a result are gonna be switching back to lighter rigs the first time they shoot under a belly or have a deer duck their "slow" arrow.

Buy a heavy arrow. Buy a light arrow. Just so long as you LEARN to tune a bow, LEARN to judge distance, LEARN to read a deer's body language, LEARN to identify questionable shots, LEARN to control the jitters, LEARN to blood trail, and most importantly LEARN that you are going to lose deer. I'd love to see a thread grow to 10 pages this quickly on any of those topics, but for whatever reason gear threads always get more traffic than skill threads. Not pointing fingers, I'm a puppet of consumerism too.

I killed 13 big-game critters this year. Nary a miss or a lost animal. 2 years ago I lost 3 deer and a hog in one season. Stuff happens. You can shoot a 300 RUM "just in case" and still lay awake at night wondering what happened.
 
What’s the rest of the story?


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Kept on trotting never to be seen again....I took a gamble on the shot.....no vitals visable....I tried to hit the spine to head connection but arrow was a little high and passed through above the spine in the meat
 
The extra penetration is amazing and the reason I first dove down the rabbit hole but now I equally love that my bow is noticeably quieter. I think its the trade off people need to look at fast bow means louder bow and you can see more string jumping. Its not just an illusion quiet but I have had multiple people say how crazy quiet my bow is.

I have also found my bow has tuned easier with heavier arrows. It could be that I have more experience now but It seems my groups are just pure tighter on set ups 525 plus grains and 15% plus FOC. There will be a fall out eventually but I have not found it yet but I have still not gone 20% plus FOC or 600 plus grains yet.

With going down the heavy arrow avenue I personally have learned how to tune and I shoot a lot more and I hope that others are learning the same thing.
 
Not sure it's exactly a gear thread....
Fair enough. Like I said, I appreciate folks thinking about the science behind pushing sharp things through critters. But I think it's definitely gear-focused, as opposed to skill-focused.

I'm not pooing on the parade. I just think it's weird what we as hunters focus on. I'm always asking myself, "Am I keeping the main thing the main thing?"

Is speed vs penetration the right thing to focus on? Cutting width vs arrow integrity? Hit vs miss? Mental vs physical?
 
I've stayed out of this one for 10 pages, but I gotta chime in.

Putting this much thought and effort into building arrows is a little silly in my mind. It's good to see guys thinking about their setups and how they're tuned, but my experience is that almost any arrow/broadhead combo will kill deer with boring predictability as long as the bow is tuned and the archer has his act together.

I've shot end-of-season clearance arrows/heads for years. That means I've shot "twizzlers and flappers" and "telephone poles and spear tips." Whatever was cheap. I've also had the dubious privilege of listening to many, MANY stories of unsuccessful shots and recoveries. I don't know that a customer ever walked up to the counter with his setup after losing a deer and the conculsion was, "Man, you need more FOC." Usually it was a bow that was pathetically out of tune or (more often) a shooter that shot a lot better in his head than he did in the range. All of my personal sob stories are the results of malfunctions in the onboard targeting computer.

Take almost any broadhead/arrow/bow off of the wall at your local sporting goods store today, set it up correctly, and place an arrow below the spine, above the brisket, behind the shoulder, and forward of the diaphragm of any whitetail inside of 40 yards and the results are quite predictable. Deer are easy to kill.

I agree there is a peace-of-mind factor to a heavier setup and a robust, COC head if you're worried about a shoulder. There's also a little peace-of-mind factor to be gained from a lighter arrow if you're worried about the difference between a 35 and a 40 yard shot. But most of this is in your head more than it is in the field.

The same marketing geniuses that convinced folks they needed a 2.5" wide expandable are now convincing folks they need a 300 grain COC. If you want it, cool. You don't need it, and the guy reading this don't need it. Chances are you need to shoot more deer and exorcise your inner bowhunter demons. That's hard to do while you're at work or on the couch though.

Same thing that holds for arrows holds for bullets. I've killed (and lost) deer with 80 grain pills and 450 grain slugs. Light and fast, heavy and slow...it probably don't matter to most of the hunters shooting most of the deer.

I have nothing against Dr. Ashby or the fairies, aside from the fact that they seem to be a bandwagon. But hey, I saddlehunt. ;) I do get irritated by folks assuming buying and using gear will solve a problem (jaded tech for sure.) Guarantee that the folks who are switching to heavier setups because they plugged a shoulder or didn't have their bow setup correctly and got poor penetration as a result are gonna be switching back to lighter rigs the first time they shoot under a belly or have a deer duck their "slow" arrow.

Buy a heavy arrow. Buy a light arrow. Just so long as you LEARN to tune a bow, LEARN to judge distance, LEARN to read a deer's body language, LEARN to identify questionable shots, LEARN to control the jitters, LEARN to blood trail, and most importantly LEARN that you are going to lose deer. I'd love to see a thread grow to 10 pages this quickly on any of those topics, but for whatever reason gear threads always get more traffic than skill threads. Not pointing fingers, I'm a puppet of consumerism too.

I killed 13 big-game critters this year. Nary a miss or a lost animal. 2 years ago I lost 3 deer and a hog in one season. Stuff happens. You can shoot a 300 RUM "just in case" and still lay awake at night wondering what happened.
Heavy arrows and cut on contact are not a band wagon, it's the way we got away from to get on a band wagon. I'll tell you right now not everyone gets the chance to shoot 13 big game animals a year unless it's their job, or they live in a place where deer numbers warrant the taking of that many. I've had years where I've had one deer in bow range. Man we're not talking about people who can't shoot. What's your maximum deer hunting range? Mine is 25 yds. All my bow kills are under 25, and most of them are under 20. I practice at 40-50 but I'm not the best shot on the planet.My biggest deer is 215 lbs. dressed, he was 6 1/2 years old and scored 166+ inches. He was a heavy bodied deer. So keep on shooting light. Me I'm going to make sure I'm ready to shoot his dad. Maybe if your shooting 40-50 yds. your going to have issues with range, but according to you it shouldn't be a problem, just learn to range better. I can judge distance, I can tune my bow, I can read a deers body language, I am a closer, I don't take bad shots, I can blood trail a deer. No one here is making anyone do anything. We're all adults here. Keep shooting what your shooting, it's working for ya. I'm going to make some changes, and that's gonna work for me. Now why don't you start a thread on all those wonderful topics you mentioned, and I'll be sure to join in, maybe you CAN teach me something, because I know I don't know everything there is to know about everything. Honestly for me, wounding three deer and a pig in one year would be unacceptable. What do you owe those losses to? Taking bad shots, not knowing your max effective range, poor arrow performance? Maybe the deer reacted to the shot and the aim point you never miss wasn't where it was when you released your arrow? Inquiring minds would like to know.
 
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Kept on trotting never to be seen again....I took a gamble on the shot.....no vitals visable....I tried to hit the spine to head connection but arrow was a little high and passed through above the spine in the meat

Oh gotcha. I thought you were eluding to arrow or broadhead failure at 580 grains.


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@Kurt, I sincerely apologize if I came off as condescending. Wasn't my intention.

You are correct in that the archery industry is in a way returning to something it got away from. We're circling back, and it's interesting to look at how that happened. The fast arrow, huge mechanical craze was in my mind just as silly as the current argument. Both sides of the coin have pros and cons.

Fast arrows "solve" trajectory issues. The arrow gets to the deer faster. Less time for stuff to happen. It flies flatter. Less penalty for misjudging distance, and you can reach out to "five more yards and I would have had him." All good things, right?

Mechs "solved" problems. It's easier to get good arrow flight without fletchings on the front of your arrow. Big cutting widths mean you might hit an artery or vein that you'd have missed otherwise. Good things again.

Of course, there's always a trade off, and a happy middle ground. "Speed kills" was a marketing slogan, not a cold fact. High IBO speeds, low GPI numbers, huge broadhead widths...most people agree that those numbers are mainly there to entice customers, not to kill deer. I'm just saying the same holds for the flip side of the coin. Marketers use numbers to help people make decisions, and in archery especially folks seem obsessed with numbers. I have always been intrigued by that, and frankly disagree with the emphasis on it. I think it's trivial. That's all I meant to say.

I think modern archery equipment is phenomenal. So phenomenal that comparing a 400 grain setup to a 600 grain setup is like comparing a .308 to a 30-06. Sure, the numbers look different on paper, but the chest cavities look the same.

Congrats on your buck. He's definitely substantially bigger than anything I've killed. 200lbs live weight is a big deer down here. 150 is closer to average. I'd still fling any run-of-the-mill arrow/head combo at a 250ish buck at 40 yards and in and feel good about a shot that landed in the basket. Maybe I'd be disappointed.

As far as losing those animals, each one had it's own story. I genuinely think they were all my fault, but I still think about them and draw blanks as to what happened. Maybe I should have quit shooting, but they're a fairly small percentage of the animals I've killed. I believe that anybody who's never lost a critter is either a liar or somebody who hasn't shot a lot of critters. Stuff happens. I've watched deer run 500 yards with their lungs hanging out of their bodies, and I've killed deer DRT that I was amazed died at all. Stuff happens...regardless of what your arrow looks like.

TL,DR not trying to be a jerk, but I think folks get caught up in the number weeds. Held off on saying it as long as I could, probably should have stayed quiet. But I believe most arrows will kill most deer most of the time, and the gains you get playing with the numbers are fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things.
 
I've stayed out of this one for 10 pages, but I gotta chime in.

Putting this much thought and effort into building arrows is a little silly in my mind. It's good to see guys thinking about their setups and how they're tuned, but my experience is that almost any arrow/broadhead combo will kill deer with boring predictability as long as the bow is tuned and the archer has his act together.

I've shot end-of-season clearance arrows/heads for years. That means I've shot "twizzlers and flappers" and "telephone poles and spear tips." Whatever was cheap. I've also had the dubious privilege of listening to many, MANY stories of unsuccessful shots and recoveries. I don't know that a customer ever walked up to the counter with his setup after losing a deer and the conculsion was, "Man, you need more FOC." Usually it was a bow that was pathetically out of tune or (more often) a shooter that shot a lot better in his head than he did in the range. All of my personal sob stories are the results of malfunctions in the onboard targeting computer.

Take almost any broadhead/arrow/bow off of the wall at your local sporting goods store today, set it up correctly, and place an arrow below the spine, above the brisket, behind the shoulder, and forward of the diaphragm of any whitetail inside of 40 yards and the results are quite predictable. Deer are easy to kill.

I agree there is a peace-of-mind factor to a heavier setup and a robust, COC head if you're worried about a shoulder. There's also a little peace-of-mind factor to be gained from a lighter arrow if you're worried about the difference between a 35 and a 40 yard shot. But most of this is in your head more than it is in the field.

The same marketing geniuses that convinced folks they needed a 2.5" wide expandable are now convincing folks they need a 300 grain COC. If you want it, cool. You don't need it, and the guy reading this don't need it. Chances are you need to shoot more deer and exorcise your inner bowhunter demons. That's hard to do while you're at work or on the couch though.

Same thing that holds for arrows holds for bullets. I've killed (and lost) deer with 80 grain pills and 450 grain slugs. Light and fast, heavy and slow...it probably don't matter to most of the hunters shooting most of the deer.

I have nothing against Dr. Ashby or the fairies, aside from the fact that they seem to be a bandwagon. But hey, I saddlehunt. ;) I do get irritated by folks assuming buying and using gear will solve a problem (jaded tech for sure.) Guarantee that the folks who are switching to heavier setups because they plugged a shoulder or didn't have their bow setup correctly and got poor penetration as a result are gonna be switching back to lighter rigs the first time they shoot under a belly or have a deer duck their "slow" arrow.

Buy a heavy arrow. Buy a light arrow. Just so long as you LEARN to tune a bow, LEARN to judge distance, LEARN to read a deer's body language, LEARN to identify questionable shots, LEARN to control the jitters, LEARN to blood trail, and most importantly LEARN that you are going to lose deer. I'd love to see a thread grow to 10 pages this quickly on any of those topics, but for whatever reason gear threads always get more traffic than skill threads. Not pointing fingers, I'm a puppet of consumerism too.

I killed 13 big-game critters this year. Nary a miss or a lost animal. 2 years ago I lost 3 deer and a hog in one season. Stuff happens. You can shoot a 300 RUM "just in case" and still lay awake at night wondering what happened.

@Nutterbuster You’re a gear whore like the rest of us nutter, don’t deny it!

You make some very good points. I’ve had complete pass throughs on hogs over 200 pounds with 400-440 grain arrows with “normal” 10-15% FOC and had fletching stuck on the off shoulder of a doe with a 505 grain arrow and normal FOC. Every situation is different and the real story is in the details.

I’ve killed big game from 4-85 yards but after 15 years of full tilt bow hunting, 3D and tuning my own equipment I lean toward heavier arrow set ups and wouldn’t consider a shot at 85 unless it was a follow up.

I guess my point is.....I’d rather see more bow hunters shooting heavier arrows and fixed blade broadheads at 30 yards and closer than attempting to “put a rage in the cage” at 50. The later has unfortunately been the trend over the past 20 years.

Ashby heavy is likely overkill for most deer hunters but our archery hunting culture would be better off leaning towards “heavier” and fixed blades in my humble opinion.


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@Kurt, I sincerely apologize if I came off as condescending. Wasn't my intention.

You are correct in that the archery industry is in a way returning to something it got away from. We're circling back, and it's interesting to look at how that happened. The fast arrow, huge mechanical craze was in my mind just as silly as the current argument. Both sides of the coin have pros and cons.

Fast arrows "solve" trajectory issues. The arrow gets to the deer faster. Less time for stuff to happen. It flies flatter. Less penalty for misjudging distance, and you can reach out to "five more yards and I would have had him." All good things, right?

Mechs "solved" problems. It's easier to get good arrow flight without fletchings on the front of your arrow. Big cutting widths mean you might hit an artery or vein that you'd have missed otherwise. Good things again.

Of course, there's always a trade off, and a happy middle ground. "Speed kills" was a marketing slogan, not a cold fact. High IBO speeds, low GPI numbers, huge broadhead widths...most people agree that those numbers are mainly there to entice customers, not to kill deer. I'm just saying the same holds for the flip side of the coin. Marketers use numbers to help people make decisions, and in archery especially folks seem obsessed with numbers. I have always been intrigued by that, and frankly disagree with the emphasis on it. I think it's trivial. That's all I meant to say.

I think modern archery equipment is phenomenal. So phenomenal that comparing a 400 grain setup to a 600 grain setup is like comparing a .308 to a 30-06. Sure, the numbers look different on paper, but the chest cavities look the same.

Congrats on your buck. He's definitely substantially bigger than anything I've killed. 200lbs live weight is a big deer down here. 150 is closer to average. I'd still fling any run-of-the-mill arrow/head combo at a 250ish buck at 40 yards and in and feel good about a shot that landed in the basket. Maybe I'd be disappointed.

As far as losing those animals, each one had it's own story. I genuinely think they were all my fault, but I still think about them and draw blanks as to what happened. Maybe I should have quit shooting, but they're a fairly small percentage of the animals I've killed. I believe that anybody who's never lost a critter is either a liar or somebody who hasn't shot a lot of critters. Stuff happens. I've watched deer run 500 yards with their lungs hanging out of their bodies, and I've killed deer DRT that I was amazed died at all. Stuff happens...regardless of what your arrow looks like.

TL,DR not trying to be a jerk, but I think folks get caught up in the number weeds. Held off on saying it as long as I could, probably should have stayed quiet. But I believe most arrows will kill most deer most of the time, and the gains you get playing with the numbers are fairly trivial in the grand scheme of things.
Likewise, I apologize if I came out of the gate fired up. I think fast light arrows solved problems for bow hunters, but they caused problems for the deer. I got into bow hunting because it was a close range sport. If I missed a chance because a deer was 5 yds. out of range, then I was out of position. I'm not looking to extend my range so I can look good to all my friends. I had a deer this year at 38yds, and he was a bruiser, way bigger than the one I got. I let him walk. Oh, the bragging rights I could have had if only I could shoot 40yds. In my mind it was more like, I knew I should have moved that set onto the edge of the transition instead of back off the hill. It's more important to me not to take the risk in a long shot, because I'm not the one doing the suffering if it doesn't turn out ok. I agree with you that it's a good thing that it gets folks thinking about their equipment. I don't feel like I'm losing anything by making an arrow with better penetration capabilities. I was able to determine from how I hunt, what I could live with as far as total weight, and trajectories are concerned. I am not trying to fool myself into believing that a heavier arrow with a better head is going to completely eliminate any oh s#@% moments any more than keeping my max range low has. It is still deer hunting after all. Have good day Nutter. Oh, and you probably are a better shot than me, you would have to be wouldn't you, with all those tiny targets running around. :) LOL
 
Well I guess I'm all in now. Shooting fixed blades,580 grain arrow and even removed peep sight and string silencer for more umff. Just killing me not to know fps. Arrows are destroying my target

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And one more small rant....mechanical BH popularity has given shop owners an excuse not to properly tune customers equipment. Poorly tuned setups is likely a bigger problem than BH choice.


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Wish I could like that ten times. Mechanicals have helped a lot of untuned and weekend hunters kill a lot of deer but it has also allow shops and bow owners the ability to just pick up their bow and go to the woods. At the same time if that is what it takes to get more people into the woods I am all for it as long as they not just flinging arrows and injuring deer.

I also think that heavy arrows are allowing the hunter to think a little more about distance. From the people that I have read they understand with a heavy arrow they are shortening their range they can reach out to which is a great thing. To many people have been trying to kill deer at 50 60 70 yards because world class archers do. Mechanicals have given them the confidence because they fly like filed points but that does not mean they will be affective once they arrive on target if they even do arrive on target.

I don't want it to sound like a pissing match of light vs heavy COC vs mechanical but if archers think about their set up and try different arrow set ups it is only making them a better archer. When testing these set ups we are making the decision on if they will be more or less lethal and that is what will make us better hunters because we are out shooting and most tuning our bows. To many hunters have no clue what they are shooting for a set up and that is where people can get into trouble. Will any arrow properly tuned kill animals ABSOLUTLY but I want a set up to still be lethal if something goes wrong. I am not perfect and I have hit shoulders, by bumping up my grains 150 and a COC head my odds of getting though a should have drastically increased.

There is a chart floating around on AT where someone timed arrows of certain weights and their drop and it is was kind of eye opening at how little of difference there really was. I will see if I can find it.
 
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