Getting learnt with Dr. Ed Ashby

[Rg176bnc]

I just want to say that this thread warms my heart.
Its nice to see guys embracing more solid, proven concepts and less of the hype of the current state of equipment.

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My main rig is still ""Flappers and Twizzlers" but if I were after pigs or something bigger than whitetails I got some missiles for them too!

 

[michigandrake]

I just want to say that this thread warms my heart.
Its nice to see guys embracing more solid, proven concepts and less of the hype of the current state of equipment.

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Me too. I am used to getting picked on at deer camp for my telephone pole setup with near recurve speed. The mechanical crowd is kinda sensitive ....lol.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

My main rig is still ""Flappers and Twizzlers" but if I were after pigs or something bigger than whitetails I got some missiles for them too!

I plan for the worst case scenarios. Whether its wind and odor or broadheads hitting heavy bone...I want the best outcome.
That mechanical stuff with fragile blades might fly nice but it has a higher rate of failure or no exit wound.
As Ashby says...there is no such thing as "overkill". I want my whitetail arrows to be capable of shooting thru buffalo.

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[Weldabeast]

I got my bow knowing zero. All the info I found while searching as a newbie points you toward the twizzlers. I shot a doe my second season hunting with a flimflam twizzler and never recovered. I had good shot placement...just piss poor penetration due to a bone hit. The mechanical broadhead had been destroyed. I saw the traditional equipment and didn't understand why it was like trad and compound were like two totally different sports. Lucky I found the ranch fairy and all the stuff he was saying made sense... then I started reading ashby and you can't dispute what he's saying. I started building my own stuff and never looked back. I am not confident shooting past 30 mainly because the animals react so fast. I'm content being handicapped with shorter range..... the trade off distance vs lethality was a no brainer for me...I shoot further on the range just for fun and I can do it but not while hunting....unless it's a hog, coyote, or armadillo....

 

[Droptine85.mt]

Has anybody experienced success with bare shaft tuning and having your expandable heads fly identical to your fixed? Or can this even be achieved?


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[slonstdy]

Did anyone catch what Troy said about the weight of the "old" aluminum arrows being like 550grs and that the hunting public guy commented on how in the past he remembered he and his dad would always get pass thrus using them? Now have you ever realized you learned something, or should I say you should have realized you learned something, but didn't know you learned it until someone told you? Like when the light bulb in your head finally turns on and you give that triumphant AHAH!? Let me expound...

During my practice shooting the last couple of years I dug out my 25 yr old xx75 2216s to add to my quiver so I could shoot a larger volume of arrows before I would have to climb down to retrieve them. Well I noticed a few things right away that were different between them and my carbons. First was that I needed to use a longer range pin to hit the same distance target, so a 20 yd shot with the xx75 required using my 30 yd pin. "No sweat, these are only for practice" I thought to myself. Next I noticed that my bow seemed quieter, but this I didn't question as to why. Ignorance is bliss they say. The aluminum arrows did have a noticeable drop in trajectory at further distances and flew slower BUT they also seemed to fly way better than my carbons which seemed to wiggle or fly sorta sideways but they did hit where I aimed "so they're good". Again, my ignorance. There was also a distinct THUMP when the aluminums hit the target, it sounded solid whereas it sounded like the bag skin tearing when the carbons hit. Now here's where your gonna really laugh at me... I've got a bunch of bag targets at varying distances from 10 to 30 yds and after awhile I noticed every time I hit one of them on the top half of the bag with the aluminum arrow it would knock the bag over. and I would mutter to myself "hey dumbass stop shooting those at the bags, shoot them at the block target! Did I think for even a second like "hey those arrows pack a punch! Maybe shoot a deer with one and see what happens..." Nope, "gotta shoot fast light weight carbons cause that's what all the celebrity hunters do...they must know everything!"

I actually did my own testing (without realizing it!) and had all the data I needed to confirm going to adult arrows was the right thing to do before I ever heard of Dr. Ashby or the Ranch Fairy but I remained stuck on stupid because I was institutionalized with my thinking that speed is what matters. Thankfully someone in here mentioned the Ranch Fairy and Troy replaced that burned out bulb in my skull with a bright shiny one!

Since I became a fairy duster and now pray to the gods of heavy arrows, out of curiosity I weighed those practice arrows . . . talk about a kick in the ass . . .

carbon arrows - Easton ST Epics - 423 grs
- Cabela's Hunters - 424 grs
- Easton Carbon Excel -435 grs

aluminum arrows - Easton xx75 - 572 grs and flew the best out of them all!!

Best advice ever is to go heavy guys!

 

[michigandrake]

Has anybody experienced success with bare shaft tuning and having your expandable heads fly identical to your fixed? Or can this even be achieved?


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The popular methodology has always been to shoot your field tips (mechanicals) and find broadheads that fly the same way. That is completely backward. Take your hunting setup and zero it in and then make your field points fly like your broadheads. It is a much easier task. So, yes it can be done but you have to start with the large broadhead first and work from there. I usually have to add some grains to my field points to drop them into my broadheads. If you are having windage problems it is most likely a tunning issue.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

Did anyone catch what Troy said about the weight of the "old" aluminum arrows being like 550grs and that the hunting public guy commented on how in the past he remembered he and his dad would always get pass thrus using them? Now have you ever realized you learned something, or should I say you should have realized you learned something, but didn't know you learned it until someone told you? Like when the light bulb in your head finally turns on and you give that triumphant AHAH!? Let me expound...

During my practice shooting the last couple of years I dug out my 25 yr old xx75 2216s to add to my quiver so I could shoot a larger volume of arrows before I would have to climb down to retrieve them. Well I noticed a few things right away that were different between them and my carbons. First was that I needed to use a longer range pin to hit the same distance target, so a 20 yd shot with the xx75 required using my 30 yd pin. "No sweat, these are only for practice" I thought to myself. Next I noticed that my bow seemed quieter, but this I didn't question as to why. Ignorance is bliss they say. The aluminum arrows did have a noticeable drop in trajectory at further distances and flew slower BUT they also seemed to fly way better than my carbons which seemed to wiggle or fly sorta sideways but they did hit where I aimed "so they're good". Again, my ignorance. There was also a distinct THUMP when the aluminums hit the target, it sounded solid whereas it sounded like the bag skin tearing when the carbons hit. Now here's where your gonna really laugh at me... I've got a bunch of bag targets at varying distances from 10 to 30 yds and after awhile I noticed every time I hit one of them on the top half of the bag with the aluminum arrow it would knock the bag over. and I would mutter to myself "hey dumbass stop shooting those at the bags, shoot them at the block target! Did I think for even a second like "hey those arrows pack a punch! Maybe shoot a deer with one and see what happens..." Nope, "gotta shoot fast light weight carbons cause that's what all the celebrity hunters do...they must know everything!"

I actually did my own testing (without realizing it!) and had all the data I needed to confirm going to adult arrows was the right thing to do before I ever heard of Dr. Ashby or the Ranch Fairy but I remained stuck on stupid because I was institutionalized with my thinking that speed is what matters. Thankfully someone in here mentioned the Ranch Fairy and Troy replaced that burned out bulb in my skull with a bright shiny one!

Since I became a fairy duster and now pray to the gods of heavy arrows, out of curiosity I weighed those practice arrows . . . talk about a kick in the ass . . .

carbon arrows - Easton ST Epics - 423 grs
- Cabela's Hunters - 424 grs
- Easton Carbon Excel -435 grs

aluminum arrows - Easton xx75 - 572 grs and flew the best out of them all!!

Best advice ever is to go heavy guys!

Im going to take a slightly different angle on this.
Ashby has proven that uefoc is superior. Foc in the neighborhood of 30% is not easy to achieve but it should be the goal.
A light, stiff shaft material is easier to reach the "magic" numbers of 650gr and 19%+ foc. It not as easy to reach those numbers with aluminum as it is with carbons.
What were the stats on your carbons that weren't hitting the bags as hard?
And how quickly did those aluminums recover from paradox?
I'm still blown away that Ashby's arrows are recovered within a FOOT of the bow. I'm not sure that an aluminum shaft can achieve that.


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[Droptine85.mt]

The popular methodology has always been to shoot your field tips (mechanicals) and find broadheads that fly the same way. That is completely backward. Take your hunting setup and zero it in and then make your field points fly like your broadheads. It is a much easier task. So, yes it can be done but you have to start with the large broadhead first and work from there. I usually have to add some grains to my field points to drop them into my broadheads. If you are having windage problems it is most likely a tunning issue.

So I need to bare-shaft tune with a fixed blade head first and then check with a field tip to ensure tuning was the same?


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[michigandrake]

So I need to bare-shaft tune with a fixed blade head first and then check with a field tip to ensure tuning was the same?


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You do not bare shaft tune with a fixed blade. Bare shaft tuning is for field points only. The purpose of bare shafting is to assure the spine and tip weight are correct for your bow. Bare shaft tuning will also show problems with your bow ........ knocking point, rest elevation & windage, collision, bad form, terrible release ....... but we will assume all that stuff is good.

Get your bare shaft tunning done then add fletch and shoot again .... still with field points. If you did it right you should be shooting really consistent now. Add your heavy broadhead. I usually notice a change in point of impact here. I like to shoot longer shots and look at your fletch in flight. If it looks smooth and everything is consistent you are looking good. Set your pin(s) and shoot a little ..... make sure everything feels just right. It is important to feel comfortable with your hunting setup. Now shoot your field point or mechanical. I normally have to add weight to my field points to get the same point of impact. It will all depend on your setup as to how much.

Just to be clear the tip weight of the fixed and mechanical must match to start. Let's say you replace your 200 grain fixed blade with a 100 grain mechanical. You will need to make up that 100 grains somehow. Heavy inserts, weight tubes, insert weights are a few thoughts.

It takes some time and more than a few shots to get this stuff down.

 

[Weldabeast]

So I need to bare-shaft tune with a fixed blade head first and then check with a field tip to ensure tuning was the same?


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No! Bareshaft with field points only

 

[Jbones91]

I'm new to all of this and would like to start working on building a setup for next year. I had gotten a set of 350 spined arrows this last year, am pulling right about 60lbs and have a 28" draw length. So, i'm guessing i'll need to change my arrow. Does everyone recommend testing 250 and 300 spine, I think this is what RF recommends testing with the RF kit?

If these are the correct spines to test... any recommendations for arrows to try for my setup? Appreciate any help.

 

[Droptine85.mt]

You do not bare shaft tune with a fixed blade. Bare shaft tuning is for field points only. The purpose of bare shafting is to assure the spine and tip weight are correct for your bow. Bare shaft tuning will also show problems with your bow ........ knocking point, rest elevation & windage, collision, bad form, terrible release ....... but we will assume all that stuff is good.

Get your bare shaft tunning done then add fletch and shoot again .... still with field points. If you did it right you should be shooting really consistent now. Add your heavy broadhead. I usually notice a change in point of impact here. I like to shoot longer shots and look at your fletch in flight. If it looks smooth and everything is consistent you are looking good. Set your pin(s) and shoot a little ..... make sure everything feels just right. It is important to feel comfortable with your hunting setup. Now shoot your field point or mechanical. I normally have to add weight to my field points to get the same point of impact. It will all depend on your setup as to how much.

Just to be clear the tip weight of the fixed and mechanical must match to start. Let's say you replace your 200 grain fixed blade with a 100 grain mechanical. You will need to make up that 100 grains somehow. Heavy inserts, weight tubes, insert weights are a few thoughts.

It takes some time and more than a few shots to get this stuff down.

Got it! Thank you!


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[michigandrake]

I'm new to all of this and would like to start working on building a setup for next year. I had gotten a set of 350 spined arrows this last year, am pulling right about 60lbs and have a 28" draw length. So, i'm guessing i'll need to change my arrow. Does everyone recommend testing 250 and 300 spine, I think this is what RF recommends testing with the RF kit?

If these are the correct spines to test... any recommendations for arrows to try for my setup? Appreciate any help.

I am guessing your 350 spine will push a pretty heavy broadhead. Get some heavy field points and bare shaft tune one and see how much weight it can handle. If it's enough weight to meet your goal then you are all set ..... just pick a broadhead in that weight. If it can't handle the weight you want then go with a stiffer spine.

 

[Bowmanmike]

I would also think your 350 should.be ok unless you go super heavy in the front. I shoot the same # but at 29.5 and am going to try 350 spine first. Victory archery has a spine calculator that is pretty good,plug in your numbers.

 

[slonstdy]

Im going to take a slightly different angle on this.
Ashby has proven that uefoc is superior. Foc in the neighborhood of 30% is not easy to achieve but it should be the goal.
A light, stiff shaft material is easier to reach the "magic" numbers of 650gr and 19%+ foc. It not as easy to reach those numbers with aluminum as it is with carbons.
What were the stats on your carbons that weren't hitting the bags as hard?
And how quickly did those aluminums recover from paradox?
I'm still blown away that Ashby's arrows are recovered within a FOOT of the bow. I'm not sure that an aluminum shaft can achieve that.


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I didn't mean to imply that I believe aluminum arrows are the way to go, I was trying to make the point that in my case those arrows performed better than my carbons solely due to their weight advantage of around 150grs , which was unrealized at the time.

According to the Easton spine chart, the 2216's I was shooting were underspined for my draw length and weight (29.5, 62#'s) but I didn't notice any bad flight characteristics or impact paradox with them whereas the carbons were illustrating all around textbook poor performance a blind man could see. I can't fault the carbons because they never had a chance really. I did a hack job assembling them and was shooting an untuned bow which magnified the problems with their poor build quality. Last year when I paper tuned for the first time those same carbons were nock high left tears while the 2216's were shooting bullet holes which leads me to agree with the RF that spine charts are not so believable without actual testing.

I'm still in the testing phase to see what the ideal arrow weight my bow likes and I absolutely agree with you that heavy high foc carbons are what's best.

 

[Rg176bnc]

I plan for the worst case scenarios. Whether its wind and odor or broadheads hitting heavy bone...I want the best outcome.
That mechanical stuff with fragile blades might fly nice but it has a higher rate of failure or no exit wound.
As Ashby says...there is no such thing as "overkill". I want my whitetail arrows to be capable of shooting thru buffalo.

My worst case scenario is a gut shot. Most do only go out of sight and stop. Except for the ones that are being pushed by other deer or trying to keep up with other deer. Then ya got the coyotes that may mess with them.

I think theres a whole lot of people chasing a white buffalo with the heavy arrow craze for deer. Ive yet to see a hide off pic of a deer where the arrow penetrated thru the spine or the scapula ridge of both sides. The bottom joint of the shoulder where it connects to the leg bone will stop most arrows stone cold as well. I think another part of this is when you hit these places its because the deer is really starting to move at this point and is sucks the penetration out of your arrow.

Its been my experience when theres a shot up front of a deer with no pass thru it is higher than they thought and hit the top of the scapula and into the top bones of the vertebra of the spine which doesn't incapacitate the deer. That deer lives everyday of the week unless he dies of infection. Seems this is almost always on a buck or older doe. That same shot on a slick head 2.5 or younger usually goes right on thru. 3hr later your scratching your head wondering what the heck happened.

I'll always believe the greatest benefit of heavy arrows for deer is a quieter bow.

 

[dalton916]

The thing about Ashby is he talks physics. Physics is not anecdotal. Physics IS cookie cutter. Its math.

Haven’t listened to the podcasts and the above quote is as far as I’ve made it through this thread so far, but it made my day reading it

 

[Patriot]

Well boys, I've been at this a while but the pieces are falling together. What you see is nearly the finished product. It's 31 3/8ths total length, 250 spine@ 9.8 gr per inch Victory VAP, sporting the masai 200gr single bevel, the Ethics 180gr stainless insert/footer combo, and weighing in at 680gr with an FoC of 21%. I shoot a 70# 27" draw Bowtech Reign 6. The fool thing flies like a dart, and quiets the bow considerably. May change the fletch color, and will add a lighted nock for sure, but other than that I love it. Crappy photo but you get the idea.

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Kurt what are your thoughts on the high grain high FOC strategy but with mechanicals? I am thinking of going to a very similar arrow build and have the same draw and weight as you (switched to reign 7 from halon 6) and a similar bow.... but man I really am scared to go fixed blade. I feel like a 1.25gr mechanical will generate a way better blood trail and I hate the lousy blood trails I got from fixed blades. I know you had a scary recovery this year and I don’t want that stress! As far as mech vs fixed what are you thinking?

 

[Kurt]

Kurt what are your thoughts on the high grain high FOC strategy but with mechanicals? I am thinking of going to a very similar arrow build and have the same draw and weight as you (switched to reign 7 from halon 6) and a similar bow.... but man I really am scared to go fixed blade. I feel like a 1.25gr mechanical will generate a way better blood trail and I hate the lousy blood trails I got from fixed blades. I know you had a scary recovery this year and I don’t want that stress! As far as mech vs fixed what are you thinking?

For me personally, I thought about that very idea. I shot Rage Trypans this past year. Aside from shaft failure due to my own ignorance, the blades bent on rib hits. Bent on both deer, just hitting ribs. In my opinion they are as close to a disposable head as you can get, and they're not cheap. I would much rather learn to resharpen a head I can reuse. I used replaceable fixed blade broadheads 26 of the 28 years I've been hunting deer with a bow, and never had as difficult year as I did this past year. I have had blades break off the replaceable broad heads I've used in the past. The Ranch Fairy's ideas about blood trails makes sense to me. If we start putting shots further forward I think we wouldn't need to be so worried about getting on 100+ yard blood trails. But we need to build in insurance when we move the shot forward. Blood trails are the reason I used the mechs in the first place, it didn't work out great for me so I'm going back to what I had success with before....... but better. No replaceable blades, and heads with some moxie. Screw that head into stainless steel instead of aluminum and most of the work is done. I've had 3 or 4 bad hits in my 28 years that I'm pretty sure if I was shooting what I'll be shooting next year they would be dead deer. For me from here forward I will not be under gunned.