Getting learnt with Dr. Ed Ashby

[michigandrake]

What were you shooting? It looks like a wooden shaft? Maybe time to add a footer. Ashbys' # 1 rule.... arrow integrity. Still great performance.

Those are GoldTip Traditional carbons. I picked up a couple dozen cosmetic blems when they were around. I believe the insert/shaft damage was done after the shot. the broadhead lodged in a tree after impact but the arrow was still in the buck. When he started running the arrow came apart. The part of the arrow that was left attached to the broadhead was bent about 45 degrees and pointed right in his direction of travel. The damage to the shaft from the insert was more dramatic than the picture shows.

 

[Nutterbuster]

I wish @kyler1945 and I had recorded our 3 hour conversation on arrow weight. Woulda made a hella-good podcast.

Don't shoot shoulders, right kyle?

 

[peteherbst]

I wish @kyler1945 and I had recorded our 3 hour conversation on arrow weight. Woulda made a hella-good podcast.

Don't shoot shoulders, right kyle?

I would’ve listened

 

[kyler1945]

I wish @kyler1945 and I had recorded our 3 hour conversation on arrow weight. Woulda made a hella-good podcast.

Don't shoot shoulders, right kyle?

I don’t remember the time that elapsed, but it was a 4 glass of whiskey conversation. I suspect the beginning was more well articulated than the end...

 

[kyler1945]

View attachment 23925View attachment 23926.

500 grain arrow at 225 fps with a 180 grain Grizzly broadhead. 150lb buck at 25 yards ..... three ribs, both lungs, opposite leg and then into a tree. You can see the broadhead tip broke on initial impact with the leg and then impacted again, breaking the bone.

One of Ashby's points is that a broadhead should neither bend nor break, but it should break before bending. Here is a good illustration of that.

500 total arrow weight, or 500+180?

 

[kyler1945]

I understand wanting to be able to shoot through shoulders. It's why I shoot 2 blade fixed broadheads with my arrow weight close to 10 gpp. (Hunted with 560ish grain arrows pulling 58 pounds this season). I tested arrows up to 800+ grains and to me, anything over 10ish grains per pound didn't make sense for how I hunt. I want to be able to break bone when I inevitably hit it, but hitting where I'm aiming is much more important to me. The flatter trajectory of a lighter arrow gives me a little more margin for error when guessing yardages in the heat of the moment. I want to hit behind my pin or very close to it even if I shoot for 30 yards when the deer is actually 36. Or when I have an ancient, string jumping whitetail on high alert at 20 yards. I'd rather hit where I'm aiming and only get 10 inches of penetration than hit 4 inches high or low and get a pass through.

Seems like the fix to sucking at ranging animals is to shoot them inside of a range where you either can’t make that mistake, or it doesn’t matter if you’re off by a yard or two. 25-30 yards seems to be The real step change in success rates.


the false sense of security a flat trajectory gets you only puts you in situations where more variables are out of your control - like the animal moving. You can hit where you’re aiming all you want. It doesn’t matter if where you’re aiming moves while your arrow’s on the way.

This is the piece of information that I think gets overlooked or taken for granted in the conversation about heavy arrows. The assumption is that you’re shooting shots with high probability of hitting very near where you’re aiming. If you’re not, the fix has nothing to do with the size of the stick you’re shooting...

 

[michigandrake]

500 total arrow weight, or 500+180?

500 total.

 

[kyler1945]

500 total.

off side shoulder?

 

[Kurt]

I understand wanting to be able to shoot through shoulders. It's why I shoot 2 blade fixed broadheads with my arrow weight close to 10 gpp. (Hunted with 560ish grain arrows pulling 58 pounds this season). I tested arrows up to 800+ grains and to me, anything over 10ish grains per pound didn't make sense for how I hunt. I want to be able to break bone when I inevitably hit it, but hitting where I'm aiming is much more important to me. The flatter trajectory of a lighter arrow gives me a little more margin for error when guessing yardages in the heat of the moment. I want to hit behind my pin or very close to it even if I shoot for 30 yards when the deer is actually 36. Or when I have an ancient, string jumping whitetail on high alert at 20 yards. I'd rather hit where I'm aiming and only get 10 inches of penetration than hit 4 inches high or low and get a pass through.

I get that. We need to weigh the benefits of our setup and look at what we hunt and how we hunt it. The biggest thing I hunt is deer. I shoot 25 yds. and in, that's it. I don't need to be set up for Asiatic buffalo. So I look at Ashby and taylor his research to my hunting style. As long as I'm on the Ashby path, I'm fine with not following it to the letter. I also want heavy for the benefits of the quieter bow, which is just as important to me as bone busting power on deer. Also I'm looking at arrow integrity. Trying to get away from lighter components. So for me it's not only a search for heavier, but more solid.

 

[michigandrake]

off side shoulder?

Yes, opposite leg. About 19" of penetration with enough juice left to bury hard into a small cedar.

 

[OspreyZB]

the false sense of security a flat trajectory gets you only puts you in situations where more variables are out of your control - like the animal moving. You can hit where you’re aiming all you want. It doesn’t matter if where you’re aiming moves while your arrow’s on the way.

The OP mentioned shooting a 650+ grain arrow out of a 40lb compound. If someone shooting a setup like that guesses 2 yards off and the animal moves while the arrow is on the way their point of impact is certainly going to be further from where they were aiming than someone shooting an arrow with a flatter trajectory. There is a point of diminishing returns and I believe I've found it FOR MY SETUP at 10 grains per pound.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

So, we have a podcast with a guys that has killed thousands of critters and also did in depth autopsies on the hits. He has forgotten more that most of us will ever know.
And some guys want to minimize his input?

 

[OspreyZB]

So, we have a podcast with a guys that has killed thousands of critters and also did in depth autopsies on the hits. He has forgotten more that most of us will ever know.
And some guys want to minimize his input?

Didn't mean to minimize anyone's input. I simply added some of my own.

 

[peteherbst]

So, we have a podcast with a guys that has killed thousands of critters and also did in depth autopsies on the hits. He has forgotten more that most of us will ever know.
And some guys want to minimize his input?

To each their own though. There isn’t a cookie cutter answer for everyone since there’s human element involved.

 

[mattfish]

To each their own though. There isn’t a cookie cutter answer for everyone since there’s human element involved.

Agreed. I’ve stated before I enjoy these discussions as they can can generate food for thought. I believe many variables should be considered when building your hunting arrow.Things like skill levels, hunting conditions and game pursued (to name a few) all should be taken into consideration.

So much information is available to us. There are quality arguments on both sides of this coin. I think to be hard fast on one end of the other could limit your overall success rates.

Maybe somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.

 

[Allegheny Tom]

The thing about Ashby is he talks physics. Physics is not anecdotal. Physics IS cookie cutter. Its math.

 

[OspreyZB]

Physics and math bore me. Going to shoot some critters with arrows

 

[peteherbst]

The thing about Ashby is he talks physics. Physics is not anecdotal. Physics IS cookie cutter. Its math.

Right. The physics is sound, but a person or their equipment may not be.

 

[DaWiz9578]

Physics and math bore me. Going to shoot some critters with arrows

So you dont want a copy of my KE, Momentum, FPS and FOC calculator spreadsheet?

 

[Weldabeast]

I build heavy because I spot and stalk in heavy cover alot. I practice shooting through palmettos all the time and heavier is better busting through brush