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How to Hunt By the Numbers

Nutterbuster

Well-Known Member
SH Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2017
Messages
10,066
Location
Where the skys are so blue!
There are lots of statistics published pertaining to deer hunting. This is not a comprehensive guide to them, but a crash-course in how to quickly get enough information to make COMPARISIONS between areas and make informed decisions on where to allocate limited hunting time.

I'm going to use my home state of Alabama as an example. We have pretty terrible record keeping because we can hardly read and we dang sure can't 'rithmetic. Your state probably has better info.

First things first. NDA publishes and annual Deer Report. Here's the 2021 one (https://www.deerassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Final-DR2021.pdf)

It's broad in scope but useful. Most of the reports are backdated 2 years, so you're reading 2019 info. Here's some things you can find out about Alabama in less than 10 minutes:

  • 47 bucks were harvested per 100 hunters, or 1 every 1.8 miles
  • The above 2 numbers are, oddly, PERFECTLY average for the southeastern region defined by the NDA
  • 59% of the bucks harvested made 3.5yo or better, slightly better than regional average of 53% and trending slightly upwards from 2 years prior
  • 68 does were harvested per 100 hunters, with a 1.5 ratio to bucks. (higher than the regional average of 0.9)
  • 78% (75% regional) of our deer get killed during rifle season, 19% (16% regional) by bow or crossbow, and only 3% (9% regional) by muzzleloader.
  • We're killing 23% fewer deer than we were killing 10 years ago
There's lots of other info about CWD and the financial aspect of the sport, but that's what I find interesting about the harvest info. We can do just a little math and find that for every 100 hunters, there are only 27 bucks killed over 3.5 years old. So, rule of thumb, only 1 in 4 bucks harvested are 3.5yo or better in age.

Another great national source of buck harvest info is the P&Y records. For a small annual fee, those can be accessed here: (http://trophies.pope-young.org/)

It's a little work, but you can copy/paste the info from their database into your very own excel spreadsheet. Most states also have a state trophy database To date, I have not found one that charged a fee to access it, but they may not be as well organized as P&Y. Alabama does not, but it used to (Alabama Whitetail Records) and I luckily pulled some of that info for my use before they went defunct. Here is a link to a spreadsheet that has some of that info: (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ouid=100433664011716621143&rtpof=true&sd=true)

You'll notice that if you examine counties in the state by trophy numbers, they're fairly concentrated. There's an exponential increase in trophies recorded in the best vs the worst counties

Most states also have harvest information, on top of any trophy database they maintain (https://game.dcnr.alabama.gov/Report/County/Deer)

Again, you'll notice a huge spread. The county with the most deer harvested has over 5.5k deer dead. The county with the least has barely 1k.

So in a quick google search you can get estimates of harvest numbers, harvest sex ratios, harvest age structure, and trophy buck records per county. With a quick visit to the US Census site (https://www.census.gov/data.html) you can pull population and and other data that can be combined with harvest data. This is important because a more populated or larger county may look better than a less populated or smaller county, but when you adjust for those variables the difference may wash out or result in the smaller county coming out ahead.

Public land numbers are more useful, but harder to get. Alabama doesn't really keep good data. Mississippi actually keeps relatively helpful data pertaining to their WMA properties. Here's an example (https://www.mdwfp.com/media/302239/dmap_report_leaf-river_2020.pdf)

Generally you will find that in addition to states and counties being very different from each other, different public properties in a given area can be ranked as well.


QUICK NOTE! People are quick to point out that all of these figures are estimates. This is true. They are inaccurate estimates arrived at by taking samples. BUT, we can fairly reasonably assume that errors high and low should be relatively consistent across the board and therefore can be used to COMPARE and RANK areas. Basically, we can get a rough idea of whether one county is better or worse than another, and a rough idea of the magnitude of difference.

By the time you put all this information together, you should have a pretty informative spreadsheet. Alabama does not have public land data, as mentioned, but by putting together some of the stuff I talked about above (and combining it with light pollution and soil type maps to help identify hot spots that may cut across part of several counties like the black belt) you can come up with something like this:

(https://docs.google.com/document/d/...ouid=100433664011716621143&rtpof=true&sd=true)

WHOAH!!! NUTTERBUSTER!!! ***, MAN?!?!?!? Why are you publishing this data?

Partially because I'm ok with shooting myself in the foot to prove a point. Partially because I know most Alabamians can't read or 'rithmetic and our hunting isn't good enough to attract OOSers. Partially because I'm confident enough in my own abilities to know that even if a meaningful number of folks adjust their hunting to account for the above info, I can still perform above the average and eventually re-crunch the numbers once they update to see what they new hot spots are.

It's worth mentioning also that your state/district/county/local wildlife biologist works for you. A Certified Wildlife Biologist has at least a 4 year degree and 5 year experience working in the field. By the time one makes it up the ranks to where they manage a state's deer program they commonly have at least 2 to 3 decades of experience and a PhD in the area. They're highly knowledgeable and generally less biased towards/against a particular area based on personal experience. Several of them were quite helpful when I recently inquired as to the average size of a mature buck in the state, which is pretty low compared to what is commonly held up as an example of a "trophy" buck.

Compiling data like this is a great way to prioritize where to spend your time, set realistic expectations about your hunting area, and generally understand what success can look like in YOUR area. America is a big country with big differences in factors that impact the structure and health of a deer herd. A very small number of hunters end up with a disproportionately loud voice in the conversation, and you may find that what they preach as gospel does not seem to translate well to your deer.
 
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I agree completely with your results. I believe most of will concede that all areas that have reasonable deer populations will have some sort of population of mature bucks. How those mature bucks will score (P&Y or B&C) compared to other areas depends largely on the resources available to them, i.e. soil composition, food sources. available minerals, etc.

Speaking from my strictly Michigan experience, a mature whitetail buck in northern Michigan is likely to score in the 120-140 in. range. Sure, there are exceptions but they are few and far between. Travel 4 hours south and the mature bucks gain 20-30 in. The pressure isn't necessarily any less, in fact its probably greater but the conditions that support antler growth and development are better.

If I was chasing "inches" I would certainly head further south every deer season. However. my personal goal is to simply pursue the "mature" whitetails in my area, whatever they may score. Whatever the reason, be it simply scarcity or a learned means of hunter avoidance, these animals provide a greater challenge to the hunter. If you can consistently find, target and kill a 120" buck where I hunt you are doing something right.
 
Doing some reading on George Mann now...wow, some crazy legends surrounding him.

Also, enjoying the data quite a bit. Thanks for sharing
 
Man I like the way you think. Data driven decision making is a great starting point. I think @Red Beard is on to something with his “Do Virginia next” comment. We could be your assistants, you know, helping you validate your methodology.
 
All this jibberjabber about wisconsin and y'all alabamers are taking over twice as many bucks per hunter and close to 4x the percentage at least 3.5 yos. by my math an Alabama hunter is about 8x as likely to shoot a little deer 3.5 or older.
 
Yep. I'm a TERRIBLE doe killer by Alabama standards.

Seriously, good eye.

Well, there’s an “and” that should be an “an”, but I really was only commenting to get my post count bumped up to 2,667.

Love ya, brutha, keep up the good work.
 
All this jibberjabber about wisconsin and y'all alabamers are taking over twice as many bucks per hunter and close to 4x the percentage at least 3.5 yos. by my math an Alabama hunter is about 8x as likely to shoot a little deer 3.5 or older.
And yet by P&Y and other trophy numbers you're 10x more likely to kill a 125" or better buck in Wisconsin. So the question is, where is the discrepancy coming from?

One of the things skewing the numbers is Wisconsin is (correct me if I'm wrong) a 1 buck state. Alabama is a 3 buck state. So that 20% of the population that does 80% of the killing can pump that number up. If both states were equal in tags awarded per hunter I'm pretty confident Wisconsin would pull ahead in buck harvest numbers.

The other thing is that different states have different record keeping and unless I'm mistaken NDA does not conduct their own studies but relies on information gathered by each states DCNR. I can tell you that some states do better jobs of tracking harvests than others. Alabama in particular does NOT pull jawbones at most of its state-managed properties. Unless you're a private landowner signed up for DMAP or hunting an SOA tract, your deer is not getting aged and entered into state databases. Basically, only our very best properties are pulling that data. I have found that in general, the better a resource is and the more money a state can make, the better a job they do of managing and measuring it. Our DCNR can tell you way more about snapper fishing than deer or duck hunting. I don't know what harvest information data gathering looks like in Wisconsin but given their reputation as a big-buck state I'd assume their conservation department is more vested in gathering accurate information.

I'd also guess that a 2.5yo buck in Wisconsin may be a more impressive animal to more people than a 2.5yo buck in most of Alabama. Down here most yearling bucks are spikes and 3 points and fork horns at 2.5. They gotta hit 3 to make basket 6s and 8s in much of the state.

Wisconsin's yearling harvest does surprise me though. Short gun season and lots of casual hunters trying to punch a tag in one week? No clue.
 
That data is inaccurate at best. The small sampling sizes are already weighted in one direction giving an extremely low confidence level and would never be published for peer review. But, yes, you can throw it out on the internet.
 
That data is inaccurate at best. The small sampling sizes are already weighted in one direction giving an extremely low confidence level and would never be published for peer review. But, yes, you can throw it out on the internet.
It is frustrating that Alabama's DCNR has a $377,000,000 budget projected for 2022 and can't be bothered to collect data that would appear vital to resource management. Seems hard to make changes to seasons, bag limits, and WMA access with the data they currently publish. But given that 80% of our license money goes towards law enforcement and "administrative expenses" I'm not shocked they can't be bothered to gather data on most properties. Especially given that the average hunter isn't interested in numbers whether they're good or bad.
 
And yet by P&Y and other trophy numbers you're 10x more likely to kill a 125" or better buck in Wisconsin. So the question is, where is the discrepancy coming from?

One of the things skewing the numbers is Wisconsin is (correct me if I'm wrong) a 1 buck state. Alabama is a 3 buck state. So that 20% of the population that does 80% of the killing can pump that number up. If both states were equal in tags awarded per hunter I'm pretty confident Wisconsin would pull ahead in buck harvest numbers.
I believe Wisconsin is 1 firearm buck and one archery buck.

The discrepancy is coming from habitat and diet.
The other thing is that different states have different record keeping and unless I'm mistaken NDA does not conduct their own studies but relies on information gathered by each states DCNR. I can tell you that some states do better jobs of tracking harvests than others. Alabama in particular does NOT pull jawbones at most of its state-managed properties. Unless you're a private landowner signed up for DMAP or hunting an SOA tract, your deer is not getting aged and entered into state databases. Basically, only our very best properties are pulling that data. I have found that in general, the better a resource is and the more money a state can make, the better a job they do of managing and measuring it. Our DCNR can tell you way more about snapper fishing than deer or duck hunting. I don't know what harvest information data gathering looks like in Wisconsin but given their reputation as a big-buck state I'd assume their conservation department is more vested in gathering accurate information.

I'd also guess that a 2.5yo buck in Wisconsin may be a more impressive animal to more people than a 2.5yo buck in most of Alabama. Down here most yearling bucks are spikes and 3 points and fork horns at 2.5. They gotta hit 3 to make basket 6s and 8s in much of the state.

Wisconsin's yearling harvest does surprise me though. Short gun season and lots of casual hunters trying to punch a tag in one week? No clue.
The WI gun season is a 9-day free-for-all that accounts for ~70% of the harvest, vs almost 90 for Alabama accounting for 75-80% of the harvest. This difference generally applies across the midwest to varying degrees. With that many deer dropping that quickly, and many (majority) hunters only hunting that period...a lot of people aren't passing on deer.

Also lack of antler point restrictions.

I can't speak directly to WI, but in MN depending on zone antler growth will vary from how you describe Alabama to bucks putting out 8pt racks at a year and a half.
 
There are lots of statistics published pertaining to deer hunting. This is not a comprehensive guide to them, but a crash-course in how to quickly get enough information to make COMPARISIONS between areas and make informed decisions on where to allocate limited hunting time.

I'm going to use my home state of Alabama as an example. We have pretty terrible record keeping because we can hardly read and we dang sure can't 'rithmetic. Your state probably has better info.

First things first. NDA publishes and annual Deer Report. Here's the 2021 one (https://www.deerassociation.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Final-DR2021.pdf)

It's broad in scope but useful. Most of the reports are backdated 2 years, so you're reading 2019 info. Here's some things you can find out about Alabama in less than 10 minutes:

  • 47 bucks were harvested per 100 hunters, or 1 every 1.8 miles
  • The above 2 numbers are, oddly, PERFECTLY average for the southeastern region defined by the NDA
  • 59% of the bucks harvested made 3.5yo or better, slightly better than regional average of 53% and trending slightly upwards from 2 years prior
  • 68 does were harvested per 100 hunters, with a 1.5 ratio to bucks. (higher than the regional average of 0.9)
  • 78% (75% regional) of our deer get killed during rifle season, 19% (16% regional) by bow or crossbow, and only 3% (9% regional) by muzzleloader.
  • We're killing 23% fewer deer than we were killing 10 years ago
There's lots of other info about CWD and the financial aspect of the sport, but that's what I find interesting about the harvest info. We can do just a little math and find that for every 100 hunters, there are only 27 bucks killed over 3.5 years old. So, rule of thumb, only 1 in 4 bucks harvested are 3.5yo or better in age.

Another great national source of buck harvest info is the P&Y records. For a small annual fee, those can be accessed here: (http://trophies.pope-young.org/)

It's a little work, but you can copy/paste the info from their database into your very own excel spreadsheet. Most states also have a state trophy database To date, I have not found one that charged a fee to access it, but they may not be as well organized as P&Y. Alabama does not, but it used to (Alabama Whitetail Records) and I luckily pulled some of that info for my use before they went defunct. Here is a link to a spreadsheet that has some of that info: (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...ouid=100433664011716621143&rtpof=true&sd=true)

You'll notice that if you examine counties in the state by trophy numbers, they're fairly concentrated. There's an exponential increase in trophies recorded in the best vs the worst counties

Most states also have harvest information, on top of any trophy database they maintain (https://game.dcnr.alabama.gov/Report/County/Deer)

Again, you'll notice a huge spread. The county with the most deer harvested has over 5.5k deer dead. The county with the least has barely 1k.

So in a quick google search you can get estimates of harvest numbers, harvest sex ratios, harvest age structure, and trophy buck records per county. With a quick visit to the US Census site (https://www.census.gov/data.html) you can pull population and and other data that can be combined with harvest data. This is important because a more populated or larger county may look better than a less populated or smaller county, but when you adjust for those variables the difference may wash out or result in the smaller county coming out ahead.

Public land numbers are more useful, but harder to get. Alabama doesn't really keep good data. Mississippi actually keeps relatively helpful data pertaining to their WMA properties. Here's an example (https://www.mdwfp.com/media/302239/dmap_report_leaf-river_2020.pdf)

Generally you will find that in addition to states and counties being very different from each other, different public properties in a given area can be ranked as well.


QUICK NOTE! People are quick to point out that all of these figures are estimates. This is true. They are inaccurate estimates arrived at by taking samples. BUT, we can fairly reasonably assume that errors high and low should be relatively consistent across the board and therefore can be used to COMPARE and RANK areas. Basically, we can get a rough idea of whether one county is better or worse than another, and a rough idea of the magnitude of difference.

By the time you put all this information together, you should have a pretty informative spreadsheet. Alabama does not have public land data, as mentioned, but by putting together some of the stuff I talked about above (and combining it with light pollution and soil type maps to help identify hot spots that may cut across part of several counties like the black belt) you can come up with something like this:

(https://docs.google.com/document/d/...ouid=100433664011716621143&rtpof=true&sd=true)

WHOAH!!! NUTTERBUSTER!!! ***, MAN?!?!?!? Why are you publishing this data?

Partially because I'm ok with shooting myself in the foot to prove a point. Partially because I know most Alabamians can't read or 'rithmetic and our hunting isn't good enough to attract OOSers. Partially because I'm confident enough in my own abilities to know that even if a meaningful number of folks adjust their hunting to account for the above info, I can still perform above the average and eventually re-crunch the numbers once they update to see what they new hot spots are.

It's worth mentioning also that your state/district/county/local wildlife biologist works for you. A Certified Wildlife Biologist has at least a 4 year degree and 5 year experience working in the field. By the time one makes it up the ranks to where they manage a state's deer program they commonly have at least 2 to 3 decades of experience and a PhD in the area. They're highly knowledgeable and generally less biased towards/against a particular area based on personal experience. Several of them were quite helpful when I recently inquired as to the average size of a mature buck in the state, which is pretty low compared to what is commonly held up as an example of a "trophy" buck.

Compiling data like this is a great way to prioritize where to spend your time, set realistic expectations about your hunting area, and generally understand what success can look like in YOUR area. America is a big country with big differences in factors that impact the structure and health of a deer herd. A very small number of hunters end up with a disproportionately loud voice in the conversation, and you may find that what they preach as gospel does not seem to translate well to your deer.



"There's lots of other info about CWD and the financial aspect of the sport, but that's what I find interesting about the harvest info. We can do just a little math and find that for every 100 hunters, there are only 27 bucks killed over 3.5 years old. So, rule of thumb, only 1 in 4 bucks harvested are 3.5yo or better in age."

These numbers confuse me when this was one of your points "

  • 59% of the bucks harvested made 3.5yo or better, slightly better than regional average of 53% and trending slightly upwards from 2 years prior
 
"There's lots of other info about CWD and the financial aspect of the sport, but that's what I find interesting about the harvest info. We can do just a little math and find that for every 100 hunters, there are only 27 bucks killed over 3.5 years old. So, rule of thumb, only 1 in 4 bucks harvested are 3.5yo or better in age."

These numbers confuse me when this was one of your points "

  • 59% of the bucks harvested made 3.5yo or better, slightly better than regional average of 53% and trending slightly upwards from 2 years prior
Told ya we couldn't read or 'rithmetic!

That should read "only about 1 in 4 hunters is harvesting a 3.5yo or better animal." 47 x .59 =27.73. 100 hunters kill 47 deer and 27 of those deer should be 3.5 or better. Again, that's based on DMAP and SOA reporting on prime properties.
 
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