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I"ve read a lot about kickouts, gaff outs, "Partial Falls" and potential accidents lately....

g2outdoors said:
I think it's just a limitation of the gear. The WE Stepp was not designed to be used with long straps and Hooks hanging off of it. It's not the fault of the Stepp Ladder if we use it incorrectly. But it simply doesn't work for me consistently when you throw on those long swaiders and aiders.

I probably used the KN/aider method 10-12 times last season in a hunting scenario. That's with 4 Stepp ladders. So on the high side I had 48 reps in a hunting scenario with the system. I had 2 kickouts that scared me. So I had a 4% "failure rate". That's waaaaay too high. Both cases were in the dark too. That complicates things.

I'm not suggesting it won't work for some people that use it a little differently than me, or in a different environment. But for me, it's too risky.

Again - I'm not blaming the Stepp. It's not the fault of a piece of gear if we use it incorrectly.

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Thanks for the thorough response and recap of the season using it--I agree, that "failure rate" is pretty high! Great to see you and others reevaluating this kind of stuff and sharing back here.

Do you think you will do an update of your video where you kind of endorse it? ("Is this the ultimate mobile climbing setup?"
) This was where I was really first made aware of the method in detail. There are a few older DIY sportsman videos I remember he did updates to with either a voice over, or a new video after using some of his gear/methods for a while. I found this really helpful and I'm sure some other watchers would find it helpful.
 
To me, it seems that recently saddle hunting has blown up. And with saddle hunting being in such close relation to the most minimal gear, I believe a lot of people are jumping in head first unaware of some of the dangers. More saddle users=more chance of accidents. Kinda like, if there were only 5 cars on the road, you’d never hear about accidents, but with 5000 on the road, the odds are much higher of hearing about an incident.

Although, on the complete opposite side of that, I’ve noticed over my years of working, that most accidents seem to be the experienced ‘old timers’ rather than the new hands. Seems the ‘old guys’ will be more risky and take short cuts, where as new people are more timid and cautious.

I like when people post their ‘moments’, because it can open the eyes of new hunters as well as experienced hunters alike of a potential hazard that they, themselves, may not have thought of or experienced... yet...


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@Vtbow Awhile ago I updated the video description to reflect my current methods. I had another video that detailed the system with the WE Stepps and I removed it. This video shows it with both the WE stepps and a climbing stick.
 
I deal with a similar scenario within my job. I sell and service specialized equipment. The folks who buy and use it are well versed in the general use of the general type of equipment. You'd think that's a plus - it's actually the opposite. The default setting for them is to assume that because they know some stuff about some stuff, they can effectively work on our stuff. They routinely make mistakes that destroy equipment. And these mistakes can and often do cost hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars. Despite my best efforts to explain the value of my specific experience, and go so far as to offer free supervision of any work done, it is often ignored.

Translated to what we do in the hunting world - we like to think we know about climbing up a tree because we've climbed up a tree a bunch of times. But the devil is in the details. The more components, and variables you add to the mix, the more complicated the risk assessment and mitigation gets. This isn't to say these things can't be done with the same or lower risk of injury as simpler climbing methods - they can. It just means that the process of learning everything involved, and gaining meaningful experience, is extensive. Most people experience a blind spot here - they lump all ways of getting up a tree together, and within their capabilities. Yes, you may be able to do it once, or 50 times. But without actually knowing the equipment, experience in using it, and understanding the risks, you fail to recognize that each time you climb, your risk is increasing.

Near misses are incredibly valuable, and I am grateful that folks are willing to put aside any embarrassment or feelings to discuss them. I hope folks getting into lightweight climbing and hunting methods are paying attention. It would probably be a good idea to start a thread on Near Misses, and drop these into it.

Simply put - if you don't have the time to dedicate to learning and gaining experience, or you're not very thoughtful or considerate when it comes to your gear, stick to the tried and true simple stuff. But keep in mind - even if it's simple, and you've done it your whole life, you may still be taking some pretty large risks you're unaware of.
 
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g2outdoors said:
@Vtbow Awhile ago I updated the video description to reflect my current methods. I had another video that detailed the system with the WE Stepps and I removed it. This video shows it with both the WE stepps and a climbing stick.
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Gotcha, I thought it seemed a little different than the one I original saw a while back, but it had been so long since I watched it. Thanks for the clarification.
 
I see the day coming when saddle hunting equipment will come with enough safety stickers to make a step ladder jealous. Someone will fall and will want to blame the manufacture for his own stupidity. Once the lawyers get involved doors will close.
 
I'm super new to (posting on) this forum, but as someone who just got a knaider/swaider and only used Wild Edge steps a few times last year, it worth it to point out that we are all very, very different. Both in terms of our comfort with risk and with our ability to feel comfortable in sketchy situations.

I do some mountaineering, back country skiing, used to ski race, rock climbing, off shore fishing, mountain biking, etc... climbing 15-20 feet up a tree while wearing a saddle or RC harness is one of my safer outdoor pursuits. So, my first time using a knaider/swaider I went right up. I've had WE steps slip, twist, drop, come so loose the top supports were 2" from the tree before using the knaider and swaider and it never bothered me. With three points of contact and being used to climbing and hanging onto or having a foothold on much sketchier and smaller things than a tree trunk and a slightly loose step (while also wearing a linesman's belt), I have never really felt concerned about hurting myself in that way.

In just a month of messing with them, I've kicked out a bunch of times with the knaider and swaider (some intentional, some not) because I've tried climbing crooked trees in the rain. But I've never felt there was a risk of plunging 10-20 feet.

Then again, I'm a guy who had the knot on the bridge of my sitdrag slip off completely when I was 20 feet up (stupidly didn't leave enough tag end). I was tied into my RC harness, but it happened when I first settled into my saddle, while I was leaned out away from the tree while standing on one slightly loose WE step. What caught me wasn't my RC harness, and wasn't my lineman's belt - it was my arms. I just instinctively grabbed the tree trunk when I felt the saddle give way. I tightened up my lineman's belt, pulled the send of the sit drag that was hanging below me back up, retied the knot to the bridge correctly, and stayed in the tree for another 3 hours.

I'm not going to advocate that anyone do things like I do, but there is massively different experience/physical ability/risk tolerance in a community this size. And I understand people's concern that someone unaware of their limitations in those areas could seriously injure themselves if they just jump into it. At the same time, selfishly, I don't want people to stop trying things, coming up with ideas and exploring the various tools that are out there, because they shortened my learning curve 1000x and improved my hunting experience by about that much as well.
 
I think sometimes especially saddle hunters, tend to fall in love with gear that isn't necessarily for them. Some people get so determined to use a certain climbing method because it posseses an important aspect to that individual or it has a cool factor to it and they continue to attempt to use it weather or not they can do it safely. For instance I wanted to use bolts. They have many benefits and they are legal in my state. I wasn't comfortable with them so I stopped using them despite all the lightweight and packability benefits that come with them. Same with spurs. Some people just don't know when to quit and they pay for it.
 
LateRiser said:
I'm super new to (posting on) this forum, but as someone who just got a knaider/swaider and only used Wild Edge steps a few times last year, it worth it to point out that we are all very, very different. Both in terms of our comfort with risk and with our ability to feel comfortable in sketchy situations.

I do some mountaineering, back country skiing, used to ski race, rock climbing, off shore fishing, mountain biking, etc... climbing 15-20 feet up a tree while wearing a saddle or RC harness is one of my safer outdoor pursuits. So, my first time using a knaider/swaider I went right up. I've had WE steps slip, twist, drop, come so loose the top supports were 2" from the tree before using the knaider and swaider and it never bothered me. With three points of contact and being used to climbing and hanging onto or having a foothold on much sketchier and smaller things than a tree trunk and a slightly loose step (while also wearing a linesman's belt), I have never really felt concerned about hurting myself in that way.

In just a month of messing with them, I've kicked out a bunch of times with the knaider and swaider (some intentional, some not) because I've tried climbing crooked trees in the rain. But I've never felt there was a risk of plunging 10-20 feet.

Then again, I'm a guy who had the knot on the bridge of my sitdrag slip off completely when I was 20 feet up (stupidly didn't leave enough tag end). I was tied into my RC harness, but it happened when I first settled into my saddle, while I was leaned out away from the tree while standing on one slightly loose WE step. What caught me wasn't my RC harness, and wasn't my lineman's belt - it was my arms. I just instinctively grabbed the tree trunk when I felt the saddle give way. I tightened up my lineman's belt, pulled the send of the sit drag that was hanging below me back up, retied the knot to the bridge correctly, and stayed in the tree for another 3 hours.

I'm not going to advocate that anyone do things like I do, but there is massively different experience/physical ability/risk tolerance in a community this size. And I understand people's concern that someone unaware of their limitations in those areas could seriously injure themselves if they just jump into it. At the same time, selfishly, I don't want people to stop trying things, coming up with ideas and exploring the various tools that are out there, because they shortened my learning curve 1000x and improved my hunting experience by about that much as well.
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Curious, amsteel bridge tied on that sitdrag?
 
Vtbow said:
Curious, amsteel bridge tied on that sitdrag?
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no, just 8mm climbing rope. Knowing I had the RC harness hooked in as a backup I didn't take the care I would usually take, and it was only my second time in the sitdrag. Tied a loop on one end and girth hitched it, then tied a figure 8 on the other. Didn't notice it had slipped from my first sit, or loosened or something.
 
NeAr misses Two falls
One 8 feet. One 3 feet
Improperly closed carabiner
Broken carbon bolt.
I still use both

I still use Carbon bolts to 8 feet
Carabiners make sure they are closed


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ricky racer said:
You know, if as a grown man you carry an extra 5 pounds to your hunting location, have your wife carry it for you....
Leave the range finder, the video camera, the camera arm, the Thermos of coffee and the bino's home and carry your sticks. Sorry, I'm grumpy today...:mad:
Click to expand...

LOL. I guess I've never understood the "just toughen up and carry extra weight" attitude. I choose to find light weight gear, not because I can't physically carry it, but because it makes me more efficient. Why carry 20 lbs when you can carry 10 lbs and be more efficient?

Also, it's fun to tinker with gear. It keeps me engaged all season long instead of just a few months during the season.
 
Ontariofarmer said:
NeAr misses Two falls
One 8 feet. One 3 feet
Improperly closed carabiner
Broken carbon bolt.
I still use both

Carbon bolts to 8 feet
Carabiners make sure they are closed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
The unlocked carabiner is the one that gets me from time to time. After switching out the self locking biners on my Kestrel I forgot to lock the one my lineman a few times. One time the rope partially pushed the gate open and I noticed it at hunting height. That will make the butt pucker a bit. Each time I was tired and in a bit of a hurry. Lesson learned. Slow down and pay complete attention. Your life depends on it.
 
Dewey said:
The unlocked carabiner is the one that gets me from time to time. After switching out the self locking biners on my Kestrel I forgot to lock the one my lineman a few times. One time the rope partially pushed the gate open and I noticed it at hunting height. That will make the butt pucker a bit. Each time I was tired and in a bit of a hurry. Lesson learned. Slow down and pay complete attention. Your life depends on it.
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I find when I'm alone or in a hunting situation I almost always remember to lock my biners. When I get lax is when I'm practicing and have been up and down a tree a few times or when I'm demonstrating to someone and my mouth is running.:) Distraction or complacency are what will get me every time.
 
Ontariofarmer said:
A method where you are constantly tethered to the tree has to be safer

One stick is safe for that reason


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A properly used tether is the safest way to maintain elevation. In a recent thread found here https://saddlehunter.com/community/index.php?threads/lessons-learned-a-safety-perspective.12317/
A poster mentioned falling six feet while tethered one sticking. That’s when questionable items like a ropeman1 really come into play. So yes tethering in and keeping the slack out of your system is the safest way. Feeling safe because you are tethered and being complacent about using it properly can cause injuries.
 
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