• The SH Membership has gone live. Only SH Members have access to post in the classifieds. All members can view the classifieds. Starting in 2020 only SH Members will be admitted to the annual hunting contest. Current members will need to follow these steps to upgrade: 1. Click on your username 2. Click on Account upgrades 3. Choose SH Member and purchase.
  • We've been working hard the past few weeks to come up with some big changes to our vendor policies to meet the changing needs of our community. Please see the new vendor rules here: Vendor Access Area Rules

Madrock Safeguard makes me uneasy

sb220 said:
I think if the lower autoblock prusik feeds up into the device, it has the potential to release both and cause a freefall. Im guessing by squeezing the top of the prusik and moving the madrock into the "release" position, which is all youre doing with that lever...just moving the device in relation to the rope
Click to expand...
This was my original thought as well. The prusik could keep the Safeguard from camming while the Safeguard simultaneously tends the prusik. The result would be that in the end neither would hold resulting in a quick trip to the ground. In my rudimentary static tests on my pictured setup I could get the Safeguard to tend the prusik but I could never get the prusik to keep the Safeguard from camming. Not to say it's not possible . . . I just couldn't make it happen.
 
boyne bowhunter said:
This was my original thought as well. The prusik could keep the Safeguard from camming while the Safeguard simultaneously tends the prusik. The result would be that in the end neither would hold resulting in a quick trip to the ground. In my rudimentary static tests on my pictured setup I could get the Safeguard to tend the prusik but I could never get the prusik to keep the Safeguard from camming. Not to say it's not possible . . . I just couldn't make it happen.
Click to expand...
Its possible or the manufacturers wouldnt tell you not to use one. Only alternative i can think of is to have some kind of boot strap that you could hook an autoblock too making it near impossible to get near the madrock. Tending though...other foot?
Personally ive used autoblocks for raps but only when using figure 8s and atc's because it was the easiest way to stop and go hands free to take down sticks and platforms.
If you dont use a backup autoblock for climbing, what makes it necessary for rappelling?
 
Last edited:
To me the price, weight, potential failure of mechanical device and more metal on metal are all drawbacks making me "uneasy". There are so many great friction hitch/rappel options available that are cheaper and safer.
 
Did a couple of unscientific tests with my Safeguard using 8mm Restech (FYI I have never used this combo on an actual climb/ hunt, I always use 9mm).

The first involved putting extreme slack everywhere I could and lightly simulating a fall (while standing and just dropping my body weigh suddenly). By extreme slack I mean 3 things. 1) I hung the brake end over a simulated tree limb so that the tag end of the rope was lined up and ready to slip straight through the device with no friction (no bend) on it whatsoever. 2) I pulled about a 10 inch bite of rope out the bottom of the device (remember I'm standing so there is no weight on the biner). 3) I massaged the device such that the cam was not pinching the rope at the start of the simulated fall (though I left the lever untouched in the closed position). I could freely move rope through the device by pulling on either end with no felt friction. When I dropped my weight quickly and the slack pulled out of the system the cam engaged immediately and caught my "fall". I repeated this several times with varying degrees of supported drop and the device cammed, pinched, and caught me every time.

Test 2 was to do everything above the same, but this time hold the lever in the open position until slack was eliminated during the "fall" and then letting go of the handle. Same results. It pinched the rope and caught me every time.

None of these were full drop shock tests. I am curious if anyone has the setup to conveniently test such. I'd contribute some money to buy a few devices to see how they'd handle a shock load.

As stated previously, I am not an expert or an engineer, and you should not take my word for anything. I am not suggesting that warnings from the company or others here are not valid.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
 
boyne bowhunter said:
This was my original thought as well. The prusik could keep the Safeguard from camming while the Safeguard simultaneously tends the prusik. The result would be that in the end neither would hold resulting in a quick trip to the ground. In my rudimentary static tests on my pictured setup I could get the Safeguard to tend the prusik but I could never get the prusik to keep the Safeguard from camming. Not to say it's not possible . . . I just couldn't make it happen.
Click to expand...
I do think it’s worth pointing out though, the amount of force generated in a fall on static line far exceeds that of us quickly sitting into it on a tree or in the basement. I can untie a double knot even after sitting onto a rope swing, but if I jump onto the rope swing pretty hard, I can’t untie the knot without a screwdriver or cutting it. So after even a short fall, everything would act different, the rope would stretch (thus temporarily becoming a slightly thinner diameter) because more than 300 lbs of load would quickly be applied, the cam return rate, would be the same speed though because the mechanical rotation would be the same distance. In my experience with both a gri gri plus and the Madrock safeguard they close with slight tension on the brake line side. This includes a short drop I had two seasons ago on an oak I was climbing. I threw it around the tree and there was a small stub branch on the back side. My girth hitch appeared to be tight from below at ground level, but about half way up the tree the small stub broke and I dropped the distance it took for my hitch to cinch the remaining distance. I was manning my brake side over a redirect pulley. I’m not sure of the distance but the rope stretched and absorbed the force. It definitely fed back into the device an inch or two though. Perhaps that’s because of the redirect? Maybe just because that’s what they are designed to do as belay devices? It didn’t hurt at all but it was a butt puckering experience for sure. For reference I was using 10mm HTP and it did well absorbing the short fall force.
The point I was trying to make though is, even in a rappel or climb situation, yes the cam should close that way because it’s a belay device, which is a catch design, but there’s no guarantee it returns fully or catches without tension from the brake line. That’s why they say the brake line must be controlled and it’s also why they have that very first line on the warning stating it’s not auto locking. I appreciate everything everyone added. I do apologize for having the spring function incorrect and for the amount of disagreement it caused. My concern is people reading all these theories and “tests” then going out thinking that either device will cam closed if the brake line is released just because they also released the handle. The manufacturer says differently. I don’t want someone to end up hurt. There is a lot of brand loyalty on this site. The safeguard is a great tool, as is the gri gri plus but neither are truly made for our use which will at some point require hands free use.
TNSTAAFL said:
Did a couple of unscientific tests with my Safeguard using 8mm Restech (FYI I have never used this combo on an actual climb/ hunt, I always use 9mm).

The first involved putting extreme slack everywhere I could and lightly simulating a fall (while standing and just dropping my body weigh suddenly). By extreme slack I mean 3 things. 1) I hung the brake end over a simulated tree limb so that the tag end of the rope was lined up and ready to slip straight through the device with no friction (no bend) on it whatsoever. 2) I pulled about a 10 inch bite of rope out the bottom of the device (remember I'm standing so there is no weight on the biner). 3) I massaged the device such that the cam was not pinching the rope at the start of the simulated fall (though I left the lever untouched in the closed position). I could freely move rope through the device by pulling on either end with no felt friction. When I dropped my weight quickly and the slack pulled out of the system the cam engaged immediately and caught my "fall". I repeated this several times with varying degrees of supported drop and the device cammed, pinched, and caught me every time.

Test 2 was to do everything above the same, but this time hold the lever in the open position until slack was eliminated during the "fall" and then letting go of the handle. Same results. It pinched the rope and caught me every time.

None of these were full drop shock tests. I am curious if anyone has the setup to conveniently test such. I'd contribute some money to buy a few devices to see how they'd handle a shock load.

As stated previously, I am not an expert or an engineer, and you should not take my word for anything. I am not suggesting that warnings from the company or others here are not valid.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
As a belay device, they are tested to meet a certain standard. I believe it includes a drop test of some form because of its intended use
 
Fl Canopy Stalker said:
Maybe just because that’s what they are designed to do as belay devices?
Click to expand...
I always felt a bit safer when I was one sticking on the Madrock than a Ropeman because of this. The short amount of slippage all goes toward a longer deceleration and therefore less shock force absorbed (as long as it ultimately does grab).

FWIW, I one stick on a distel hitch now just for stealth sake. There's less metal to bang around.
 
Why I would backup my GRIGRI plus or my Madrock is if for some reason your release or something else would hook onto the lever and open it. It could happen and that's just my thoughts.
 
boyne bowhunter said:
I always felt a bit safer when I was one sticking on the Madrock than a Ropeman because of this. The short amount of slippage all goes toward a longer deceleration and therefore less shock force absorbed (as long as it ultimately does grab).

FWIW, I one stick on a distel hitch now just for stealth sake. There's less metal to bang around.
Click to expand...
The slippage is one of the reasons i still use if for one sticking. But I still use a linemen's belt also.
 
CooterBrown said:
The slippage is one of the reasons i still use if for one sticking. But I still use a linemen's belt also.
Click to expand...

Agree 100%. Not only do I feel safer ascending with lineman's but it's so helpful when getting tether higher up for next move and also makes me feel more secure when setting up gear at hunting height and pulling up my bow.
 
Can you silence your carabiner with camo wrap/hockey tape and have your gri gri plus work properly? I see the rope making contact with your biner.
 
Ben C said:
Can you silence your carabiner with camo wrap/hockey tape and have your gri gri plus work properly? I see the rope making contact with your biner.
Click to expand...
I did and haven't had any issues. My carabiner might be different than yours.
 
I would be using a black diamond liteforge screwgate biner. I've been thinking of trying a gri gri + rather than my safeguard
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top